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	<title>Comments on: The Suborbital Refueling Dance</title>
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	<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096</link>
	<description>Biting Commentary about Infinity...and Beyond!</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Milenkovic</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87422</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Milenkovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87422</guid>
		<description>&quot;Also if the vehicles are VT is there any downside to having them take off already coupled…..&quot;

Dunno, the adverse aerodynamics of the two vehicles in &quot;biamese&quot; configuration at max-Q?  That is, if the vehicles are mated together, they may be less aerodynamic or less controllable than if they flow by themselves.  The Shuttle &quot;stack&quot; is not a true biamese, but the shock waves from the SRB&#039;s and the Orbiter and the ET mixing it all up must have been a serious aerodynamic design challenge.

The other problem could be the &quot;stuff falling of the tank and hitting the tiles.&quot;  Imagine if the Shuttle Orbiter could be lofted into suborbit, the External Tank lofted into suborbit, and the tank fueling (or oxidizing) up the Orbiter outside the influence of aerodynamic forces and in free fall.  You would not have the problem of, ahem, &quot;stuff&quot; falling from the Tank and damaging the Orbiter.

On the other hand, the suborbital in-flight refueling mission profile -- it would probably come about like &quot;synchronized diving&quot; (do they do that in the Olympics?)  Two spacecraft on two pads, far enough away that they don&#039;t risk blast damage to each other, but with synchronized engine start and synchronized liftoff.  A computer gives the &quot;GO&quot; for both launches if both sets of rocket engines successfully reach operating thrust at the same time for the hold-down arms on each pad to be released at the same time.

We would watch two rocket plumes streak skyward and then lose sight of them.  We would &quot;watch&quot; the suborbital refueling represented by the &quot;artists&#039; animation&quot; on TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Also if the vehicles are VT is there any downside to having them take off already coupled…..&#8221;</p>
<p>Dunno, the adverse aerodynamics of the two vehicles in &#8220;biamese&#8221; configuration at max-Q?  That is, if the vehicles are mated together, they may be less aerodynamic or less controllable than if they flow by themselves.  The Shuttle &#8220;stack&#8221; is not a true biamese, but the shock waves from the SRB&#8217;s and the Orbiter and the ET mixing it all up must have been a serious aerodynamic design challenge.</p>
<p>The other problem could be the &#8220;stuff falling of the tank and hitting the tiles.&#8221;  Imagine if the Shuttle Orbiter could be lofted into suborbit, the External Tank lofted into suborbit, and the tank fueling (or oxidizing) up the Orbiter outside the influence of aerodynamic forces and in free fall.  You would not have the problem of, ahem, &#8220;stuff&#8221; falling from the Tank and damaging the Orbiter.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the suborbital in-flight refueling mission profile &#8212; it would probably come about like &#8220;synchronized diving&#8221; (do they do that in the Olympics?)  Two spacecraft on two pads, far enough away that they don&#8217;t risk blast damage to each other, but with synchronized engine start and synchronized liftoff.  A computer gives the &#8220;GO&#8221; for both launches if both sets of rocket engines successfully reach operating thrust at the same time for the hold-down arms on each pad to be released at the same time.</p>
<p>We would watch two rocket plumes streak skyward and then lose sight of them.  We would &#8220;watch&#8221; the suborbital refueling represented by the &#8220;artists&#8217; animation&#8221; on TV.</p>
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		<title>By: reader</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87297</link>
		<dc:creator>reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87297</guid>
		<description>There was a Single Stage to Tether concept around as well, which instead of refueling the suborbital, would catch a skyhook instead.
http://www.spacetethers.com/sstt.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a Single Stage to Tether concept around as well, which instead of refueling the suborbital, would catch a skyhook instead.<br />
<a href="http://www.spacetethers.com/sstt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.spacetethers.com/sstt.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87264</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87264</guid>
		<description>Wow.  A really, really, really complicated way to do..... staging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  A really, really, really complicated way to do&#8230;.. staging.</p>
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		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87209</link>
		<dc:creator>red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87209</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Transterrestrial prize suggestions:

http://twitter.com/Doug_Comstock: Peter Homer wins $250k 1st prize and Ted Southern wins $100k 2nd prize in Astro Glove Challenge. Congrats to both for a great competition! 

http://twitter.com/pkhomer: Re-Pete! My astronaut glove wins first prize at NASA Centennial Challenge! 

Worthy opponent Ted Southern teamed with Nik Moisiev, both past competitors, also beat NASA glove to win 2nd prize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Transterrestrial prize suggestions:</p>
<p><a href="http://twitter.com/Doug_Comstock" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/Doug_Comstock</a>: Peter Homer wins $250k 1st prize and Ted Southern wins $100k 2nd prize in Astro Glove Challenge. Congrats to both for a great competition! </p>
<p><a href="http://twitter.com/pkhomer" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/pkhomer</a>: Re-Pete! My astronaut glove wins first prize at NASA Centennial Challenge! </p>
<p>Worthy opponent Ted Southern teamed with Nik Moisiev, both past competitors, also beat NASA glove to win 2nd prize.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87129</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87129</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Which is also very good news for ISRU. Kerosene/H2O2 would be nocryogenic like MMH/NTO, which solves boil-off issues and allows propellant transfer with proven technologies&lt;/i&gt;

Cryogenic boil off is not such an issue if launching from above most of the atmosphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Which is also very good news for ISRU. Kerosene/H2O2 would be nocryogenic like MMH/NTO, which solves boil-off issues and allows propellant transfer with proven technologies</i></p>
<p>Cryogenic boil off is not such an issue if launching from above most of the atmosphere.</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87113</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87113</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;With H2O2 the OF ratio is so skewed you only need to transfer one propellant.&lt;/i&gt;

Which is also very good news for ISRU. Kerosene/H2O2 would be nocryogenic like MMH/NTO, which solves boil-off issues and allows propellant transfer with proven technologies. In addition it would not be nearly as nasty. Performance would be slightly less, but not critically so and ISRU potential would be a lot better. All in all, a fine near term propellant combination for landers and other transfer craft based at Lagrange points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>With H2O2 the OF ratio is so skewed you only need to transfer one propellant.</i></p>
<p>Which is also very good news for ISRU. Kerosene/H2O2 would be nocryogenic like MMH/NTO, which solves boil-off issues and allows propellant transfer with proven technologies. In addition it would not be nearly as nasty. Performance would be slightly less, but not critically so and ISRU potential would be a lot better. All in all, a fine near term propellant combination for landers and other transfer craft based at Lagrange points.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Breed</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87103</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Breed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87103</guid>
		<description>Reminds me about the high school math puzzle.... you want to cross the desert, its 250 miles, you can carry enough water to go 50 miles.
How many people does it take to get one man across if everyone survives, if only the guy making it across survives.....

Who said High school algebra puzzles were useless.... ;-)

With H2O2 the OF ratio is so skewed you only need to transfer one propellant.

Also if the vehicles are VT is there any downside to having them take off already coupled.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me about the high school math puzzle&#8230;. you want to cross the desert, its 250 miles, you can carry enough water to go 50 miles.<br />
How many people does it take to get one man across if everyone survives, if only the guy making it across survives&#8230;..</p>
<p>Who said High school algebra puzzles were useless&#8230;. <img src='http://www.transterrestrial.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>With H2O2 the OF ratio is so skewed you only need to transfer one propellant.</p>
<p>Also if the vehicles are VT is there any downside to having them take off already coupled&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Mitchell Burnside Clapp</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87095</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitchell Burnside Clapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87095</guid>
		<description>This concept was actually explored before Pioneer Rocketplane was even founded. I don&#039;t have a copy of the AIAA papers from back then handy but there is a mention of this in &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.risacher.org/bh/analog.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article from Analog&lt;/a&gt; in 1995. 

We were focused on a &quot;near SSTO&quot; design using suborbital refueling as an enhancer for payload. You could think of it as a biamese idea except for the fact that you do the stage integration with a hose, and after launch. Mathematically, they&#039;re not so different. Scroll down; it&#039;s below figure ten.

It&#039;s also worth pointing out that the receiver-side propellant transfer hardware arguably could be common for both the atmospheric propellant transfer, needed to load the rocket propellants in the first place, and the exoatmospheric propellant transfer. We imagined a &quot;transfer kit&quot; in the payload bay of the tanker-configured vehicle, with the necessary pump or pressure feed systems to push the propellant out into the receiver. 

The precision flying needed to effect the transfer is probably easier outside the atmosphere, given the lack of disturbances. We pictured a back-to-back concept, but didn&#039;t think it through completely, so perhaps another approach would be preferred.

An aircraft designed for the suborbital point-to-point mission would be a good fit for this application. The extra delta-V obtained from a second propellant transfer could deliver net payload to orbit. A first look at the thermal protection system requirements suggests that the more rapid heat rates from the &lt;i&gt;suborbital&lt;/i&gt; case is probably the designing requirement.

Finally, if you can refuel exoatmospherically in a suborbital trajectory, you can do so in an orbital trajectory. And that makes a great many things possible, clearly, as advocates of orbital propellant depots have argued for some time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This concept was actually explored before Pioneer Rocketplane was even founded. I don&#8217;t have a copy of the AIAA papers from back then handy but there is a mention of this in <a HREF="http://www.risacher.org/bh/analog.html" rel="nofollow">this article from Analog</a> in 1995. </p>
<p>We were focused on a &#8220;near SSTO&#8221; design using suborbital refueling as an enhancer for payload. You could think of it as a biamese idea except for the fact that you do the stage integration with a hose, and after launch. Mathematically, they&#8217;re not so different. Scroll down; it&#8217;s below figure ten.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth pointing out that the receiver-side propellant transfer hardware arguably could be common for both the atmospheric propellant transfer, needed to load the rocket propellants in the first place, and the exoatmospheric propellant transfer. We imagined a &#8220;transfer kit&#8221; in the payload bay of the tanker-configured vehicle, with the necessary pump or pressure feed systems to push the propellant out into the receiver. </p>
<p>The precision flying needed to effect the transfer is probably easier outside the atmosphere, given the lack of disturbances. We pictured a back-to-back concept, but didn&#8217;t think it through completely, so perhaps another approach would be preferred.</p>
<p>An aircraft designed for the suborbital point-to-point mission would be a good fit for this application. The extra delta-V obtained from a second propellant transfer could deliver net payload to orbit. A first look at the thermal protection system requirements suggests that the more rapid heat rates from the <i>suborbital</i> case is probably the designing requirement.</p>
<p>Finally, if you can refuel exoatmospherically in a suborbital trajectory, you can do so in an orbital trajectory. And that makes a great many things possible, clearly, as advocates of orbital propellant depots have argued for some time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096&#038;cpage=1#comment-87085</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=23096#comment-87085</guid>
		<description>Pumping only one propellant works best when you have a really large O/F ratio, like what Blackhorse would&#039;ve had with its peroxide/kero combination.  For more balanced O/F ratios (like what you see with most LOX/alcohol or LOX/hydrocarbon combos), being able to pump both definitely makes a difference.  I&#039;d have them both be on the same boom, just separate hoses though, because having to make two boom connections might be more hassle than it&#039;s worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pumping only one propellant works best when you have a really large O/F ratio, like what Blackhorse would&#8217;ve had with its peroxide/kero combination.  For more balanced O/F ratios (like what you see with most LOX/alcohol or LOX/hydrocarbon combos), being able to pump both definitely makes a difference.  I&#8217;d have them both be on the same boom, just separate hoses though, because having to make two boom connections might be more hassle than it&#8217;s worth.</p>
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