Transterrestrial Musings

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Then we're even; most Americans don't like Europeans very much.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut at May 9, 2004 01:25 PM

Anything that annoys the Europeans is fine by us Brits!

Posted by Dave T at May 9, 2004 01:29 PM

My only question is how many of the rural folks and those that live outside of the major European cities feel this way?

I remember being in Southern France in 2001 and after getting lost on the way back to Nice from the wine country being treated to a great meal by a farmer at his roadside cafe. Why cause we were Americans and when the Allies returned to France in 1944 he was saved from an execution cause of a lucky bomb hit on a Gestapo building which allowed him to escape the night before the landings in Southern France.
Most of the people in Luxemburgh and the farm country of Belgium and Holland remember the exploits of the folks from the 101st and 82nd Airborne during the Battle of the Bulge. I think that it is the folks that live in the cities are the ones that don't tolerate Americans.

Posted by Charles at May 9, 2004 06:19 PM

>Then we're even; most Americans don't like
>Europeans very much.

I guess that it would be to much to expect of you beeing able to differentiate between European dislike of your commander in chief, and a supposedly European "dislike" of Americans.

Posted by Canute at May 10, 2004 03:08 AM

>Anything that annoys the Europeans is fine by us Brits!

What are you talking about and who do you actually represent? The regular reader of The Sun, or the more progressive and outward looking, less nationalistic and bilingual Brit.

BTW, search for "dislike" and "Americans" on google. One result on page 1:

"Why do UK citizens dislike Americans?"
www.uk-learning.net/t39260.html
_________________________________________________

Hello.
I'm a 19 year old American studying Sociology in London. And I have a question directed toward the citizens of the UK. Why do most UK residents dislike America? And what are your views towards Americans in general?? Ever since I came to your country, I have had a blast. However, I've noticed 2 very distinct reactions from the citizens of London. Most have been friendly, and sometimes I get stereotypical comments when I am out in the city, sometimes hostile, and I just want to say this....
__________________________________________________

In the responses to the 19 year old American, there's quite a lot of stereotypical views expressed. Would it be fair to assume that such views are shared by you?

Posted by Canute at May 10, 2004 03:53 AM

>I think that it is the folks that live in the
>cities are the ones that don't tolerate Americans.

I would be curious to know if you believe that your "conclusion" would make a passing, or a failing grade in any university entrance examination?

-------------------------------------------------

"What Do Europeans Like and Dislike about the United States?" By News Report, Mar 30, 2004

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6040.shtml

Excerpts:

When people in the five largest European countries think of the United States, they tend, on balance, to feel positively about the American people, American films and television programs, the quality of life in America, and how Americans do business. On the other hand, large majorities of Europeans have negative opinions of President Bush, U.S. policies in Iraq and Afghanistan and of recent American foreign policy. So the phrase "anti-American" is capable of many meanings and is potentially misleading.

This ability to differentiate is particularly strong when Europeans consider the people, as compared to leaders and government policies of the United States.

-- Only 13% of these Europeans, on average, have negative opinions of the American people, and only 33% have negative opinions of the United States.

-- Fully 70% have negative opinions of President Bush; 69% have negative opinions of U.S. policies in Iraq, and 62% have negative opinions of American foreign policy since 2000, when President Bush came to power.

Posted by Canute at May 10, 2004 04:17 AM

Canute, the popularity of something is uncorrelated with its quality. I offer in evidence the ratings of so-called "reality" TV shows. All polls can tell you is what is popular, not what is right. The opinions of the European polities you cite may well be as represented. They are, no doubt, quite sincerely held. That doesn't prevent them from also being quite wrong.

Posted by Dick Eagleson at May 10, 2004 05:06 AM

Dick, could you please point out what is "right" and where the "European Polities"(¤) are wrong?

¤Note: the poll was carried out by Harris Interactive (http://www.harrisinteractive.com) headquartered in Rochester, New York and HI Europe (http://www.hieurope.com) headquartered in London, UK.

Posted by Canute at May 10, 2004 05:53 AM

I think it's only natural for someone to distrust a powerful neighbor that they feel they have no control over, even if it's a good neighbor and we have not always been that. However, they express negative sentiments not just about presidents, but America itself, which is the people... with our history, I don't think we deserve that.

Posted by ken anthony at May 10, 2004 08:31 AM

After reading the posts above, I'm still not sure what Canute's position is. The European press knock all of America quite a bit. The French, being French, want us to do what they think is right and we, being Americans, will just do the right thing. True, we don't always do it but since we saved the world twice in the last century, I'll go with us.
I hope everyone realizes the formation of the European Union is an attempt to counter the economic and military strength of the oldest democracy on the planet and France, Belgium and Germany want to lead it. Where does most of the anti-American rhetoric come from? See above.
BTW I did a yahoo search on "hate" and "Americans"...2.9 million sites.

Posted by Bill Maron at May 10, 2004 10:57 AM

Despite Rand's childish sentiment, I did want to point out this rather poigniant sentence from said article:

"Nor are Europeans thrilled about the American values they feel Mr. Bush has encouraged, in which anti-Europeanism is applauded as a virtue"

Posted by Kevin Parkin at May 10, 2004 03:10 PM

Despite Rand's childish sentiment...

Heh. I didn't say I'd vote for Bush for only that reason (actually, I'm not sure who I'll vote for, other than it won't be for Kerry), but I will confess to a non-zero amount of schadenfreude for them if he wins.

"Nor are Europeans thrilled about the American values they feel Mr. Bush has encouraged, in which anti-Europeanism is applauded as a virtue"

I have no idea to what they're referring here. When has Mr. Bush encouraged (at least directly) anti-Europeanism as a virtue? Or do they mean that they believe that cowboys are intrinsically anti-European? Maybe they're right, and if so, tough noogies.

Posted by Rand Simberg at May 10, 2004 03:16 PM

"Or do they mean that they believe that cowboys are intrinsically anti-European?"

Yes, I agree, that is what they appear to be saying.

American culture is very popular in Europe in the form of US films, so everyone is familiar with the go-it-alone shoot-first talk later cowboy stereotype.

Unfortunately, when Bush became president I think Europeans had only film stereotypes with which to characterize his persona, and given how little Europeans value cowboy traits in a leader, it set their fears and expectations.

Rather than proving these fears to be unfounded, the Bush administration reinforced the negative aspects of Bush's stereotype by displaying all the aforementioned go-it-alone, invade-first, diplomacy-later traits in starkly recognizable ways. That is why Europeans reacted so fearfully to Bush in the first place, and that is why they like him even less now.

Having said this, I do think that the stereotyping and demonizing of both sides (EU states and Bush et. al.) by the public and some politicians is both inevitable and unhelpful. It masks and trivializes the valid and deeply-felt fears about the state of world affairs that reasonable and balanced people on both sides of the Atlantic have. We are going through an unprecedented period of adversity worldwide, and on many levels ranging from war and terrorism to near and medium-term economic and environmental sustainability.

The country with the power to make the biggest difference is the US, so naturally everyone worldwide has a strong opinion on the US election. I wouldn't begrudge them for it. After all, I'd want the world to look to my country for leadership - just ask the Russians (or the English) what it's like to lose the world's attention.

Posted by Kevin Parkin at May 11, 2004 05:03 AM

...the Bush administration reinforced the negative aspects of Bush's stereotype by displaying all the aforementioned go-it-alone, invade-first, diplomacy-later traits in starkly recognizable ways.

Not recognizable to me, starkly or otherwise.

"Go-it-alone"? No matter how many times people repeat the Big Lie, we didn't go it alone. We just did it without a few European countries and Russia.

"Invade-first, diplomacy-later"?

You mean invading after a dozen years of trying to get Saddam to live up to his agreements and Security Council resolutions, waiting two and a half years after the war started, waiting many months after many attempts to get the UN to decide to enforce its own resolutions (though it's now clear that it was never going to do so, since Saddam had bought them off)?

Sorry, but this view is simply nonsense. If we were half the "cowboy" that the Europeans fantasize, there would have been mushroom clouds sprouting in the Middle East on September 12. They are living in a dreamworld, encouraged by their own skewed press.

Posted by Rand Simberg at May 11, 2004 06:58 AM

>After reading the posts above, I'm still not
>sure what Canute's position is

My position on what?

>The European press knock all of America quite a bit.

Are you sure they "knock all of America"?

>The French, being French, want us to do what
>they think is right and we, being Americans,
>will just do the right thing.

There seems to be a special place for France in the heart of those of you of the political right in the US. Ever since the French government objected to shrub's war in Iraq, an un-precedented and formidaable bullying and hatred was unleashed by the US political right against one of your oldest allies.

Laura Ingraham, in Shut Up and Sing: How Elites from Hollywood, Politics, and the UN Are Subverting America (Regnery, 2003), seems to be a fair representation of current political thinking among the US right-wing's chattering classes.

In the book, Ingraham denounces the French as anti-American, greedy, and corrupt. Not just the leadership, but all of "perfidious" France. An un-named Bush aide told her that John Kerry looked French, the lowest insult a conservative could fire at a liberal enemy. Finally, the true colour of Ingraham is revealed in the last few pages: Democrats are "European", while Republicans are American.

>True, we don't always do it but since we saved
>the world twice in the last century, I'll go with us.

You certainly display an abysmal level of factual knowledge of WW1 and WW2.

Furthermore, quite a few Americans like yourself, seem to believe that your nation alone defeated Germany in World War II. Not so. Stalin's Soviet Union defeated the Third Reich, destroying 100 German divisions in titanic battles on the Eastern front that made D-Day seem like a relatively minor battle.

>I hope everyone realizes the formation of the
>European Union is an attempt to counter the
>economic and military strength of the oldest
>democracy on the planet

Again, you display an abysmal level of factual knowledge; this time regarding the formation of the EU.

Why don't you take a look at "A timeline of the EU":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3583801.stm

Note that the 3 most important events in the formation of the EU was:

1) The Treaty of Paris in 1951
2) The Treaty of Rome in 1957
3) The Maastricht Treaty in 1991/93

>...and France, Belgium and Germany want to lead it.

Belgium?

>Where does most of the anti-American
>rhetoric come from? See above.

If you care to know; the "anti-American" rhetoric you are talking about is mostly anti-Bush rhetoric. In any case, it's not unique to Germany and France. You'll find that same rhetoric in most of the European countries.

Posted by Canute at May 11, 2004 12:21 PM

Rand,

I disagree with your analysis. This is neither the time nor the place to make a point by point rebuttal, and in any case your mind is made up already. It is a truism that people don't hold beliefs, beliefs hold people.

Now, I do want to re-state the essence of what I was saying before, which is that the electorate has become unusually fear-driven and hate-driven of late.

I think this path leads nowhere, helps no-one, and the public (and blogosphere) must try to rise above it. We need an informed and mature debate on some very important and very real issues that face us, such as the decline of the US science base, the impending oil-induced contraction of the world economy, policies to manage or mitigate the effect of local and global climate change, the economic well-being of the average American family, and of course future military policy.

These are dark times, and the coming weeks are the time to put past baggage behind us and find a path forward - surely that is most important?

Posted by Kevin Parkin at May 12, 2004 01:18 AM

Canute,
My question was on your thoughts about Rand's initial post. But I respond to your other comments below.
" France does not know it, but we are at war with America. Yes, a permanent war, a vital war, a war without casualties, at least on the surface." Former Pres. F. Mitterand to friend and confidant, Georges-Marc Benamou

"I hate America." Former French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine during an interview about his 1995 book 'France's Trump Cards'

Bernard Guetta a columnist for L'Express, "France has the ambition of creating a European Union that is a counterweight to the Unites States."

In Nov. 2002 Dominique de Vellepin, "We are convinced that the world can enjoy stability only if Europe exerts its full influence."

Le Monde Diplomatique a French journal, "It's too bad for the Americans, but they had it coming." Their thoughts about 9/11.
How many of these do you want? I can go on all day. A lot of this kind of rhetoric is from prior to 2000. Bush was not President yet. Why do you think Belgium is pushing for E.U. activities to be headquarted there? Remember the "Praline Summit"? As for saving the world twice, the U.S. fought in the Pacific AND European theaters at the same time. Hitler was, at worst, stalemated with the Soviets until the U.S. entered the war. THEN the Soviets made their push into Germany from the east and didn't fight in China until we were ready to bomb Hiroshima which meant we had driven two armies back to their borders half a world apart. My knowledge of military history and world affairs is just fine, thank you.

Posted by Bill Maron at May 13, 2004 10:47 PM

I don't like anyone in particular. That leaves my out of the congregation of gripes.

Posted by Whatmatters at April 15, 2005 05:41 AM

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