Transterrestrial Musings

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Random anecdote: I remember, a couple of years back, the editorial in the student newspaper being a fairly vituperative rant about typical student politics, &c &c, bleeding-heart liberalism, silly treehugging, over a silly decision made at a Union meeting the night before. Written by someone who'd participated in the debate, in fact, and presumably felt strongly about the issue. (I can't remember what it was - one of the motions to "bank ethically" or something, I suspect. Ten a penny, that year.)

Although, sadly, not strongly enough to notice that his side had actually won the vote, so whatever he was ranting about his money being spent on wasn't going to happen...

Posted by Andrew Gray at February 17, 2005 10:30 AM

Well, I didn't register, and won't, at DailyCampus, bt I can take a whack at Sucks 10 and 9.

Adolescent college students (yes, that is redundant) traditionally crank out pompous but naive political pronouncements. It's the first time they been out from under Mom and Dad's protective wings and they've just found out that the world isn't made of sweetness and light. The naivete is apparent on both sides of the political spectrum; it isn't solely possess by the left.

So, jumping on them is a bit of a cheap shot. That said, I can dispute some of those 10 items.

Number 10: I've lived in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Waiters on all 3 continents have expected tips. Ditto cab drivers. The only people who don't want tips are people who don't know about tips.

Number 9: Yeah, Yanks can be cocky and arrogant. I've actually witnessed overweight Yanks shouting out (in London, of all places) "How much is that in real money?" Made me want to pretend I was Canadian. But, we don't hold a monopoly on arrogance and cockiness. Ever listen to a Brit talk about the Irish? Or a London Brit talk about his countrymen in Yorkshire? Or, Jordanians talk about Egyptians? Or, almost any Arab talk about Palestinians? Frankly, measured in distance, I'd bet Americans are more travelled than any nationality. Europes legacy of multi-culturism is a relic of medievalism. Besides, it sure seems to me that Europeans in general have been awash in self-congratulaions for more than a few years, presumably because they haven't taken to mass warfare on each other in the last few generations.

Posted by billg at February 17, 2005 12:03 PM

Well, that little snot who wrote the article is certainly a good example of an arrogant American. If he has 9 classmates like him, that would make 10 reasons why UConn sucks.

Posted by slimedog at February 17, 2005 12:03 PM

The author was in Europe for...2 weeks! [gasp] He is most certainly a man-of-the-world now! I bow before his tremendous wealth of experience!

What a crock. I actually had an intelligent 34 yr old (a financial professional) pull out that old chestnut "How can you call America the greatest nation unless you've traveled...etc." So, you go on vacation for a few days every year and call yourself traveled and educated about other countries. And Europe hardly counts as "other countries" - they're still western at their core, we still are able to grasp the core values of western cultures easily enough.

Try spending a few years in the Middle East, or central Africa, or the Far East...hell, even South America, a 3rd world continent, would open your eyes if you went beyond tourist mode.

Naive commentary like that makes me laugh and makes me hopping mad at the same time.

Posted by Jared at February 17, 2005 12:19 PM

> many Americans are cocky and arrogant because we are secluded. Most Americans
> don't ever leave the country and experience other cultures. It makes sense
> considering everything most people need - from snowy mountaintops to sandy
> beaches - America has.

The claim that "most Americans don't ever leave the country" is probably based on the frequent statement that only 15% of all Americans have passports. However, that statement isn't based on official figures and is suspect. Second, the author seems unaware that it's possible (even common) for Americans to leave the country without a passport.

The biggest error, though, is believing Americans have to leave the country to experience "other cultures." A few years ago, I drove a Commanche friend of mine to Fort Worth to buy white buckskin for her wedding dress. I haven't heard of many people doing that in New York or LA. My mother grew up speaking Russian, Polish, and Lithuanian -- in Pennsylvania. The number of Native American languages alone exceeds the number of native European languages -- and there's no European language you won't find someone speaking, as a primary language, somewhere in the US. Do the French quarter of New Orleans, San Francisco's Chinatown, and Spanglish-speaking South Texas have more in common than Paris and Madrid? Is a Pennsylvania Dutch farmer really indistinguishable from a valley girl in LA?

There are certainly a lot of things you can see in Europe that you can't in the United States -- medieval castles, for example -- but "other cultures" isn't one of them.

I wonder, is the average European really better travelled than the average American? Or does he simply have to cross more national borders to travel a similar distance (thus leading European intellectuals to conclude he must be culturally superior)? A lot of New Yorkers travel to Yellowstone to see the bison. How many Londoners go to Poland to see the European bison?

Posted by Edward Wright at February 17, 2005 12:46 PM

Allow me to point out the, not so politically correct to even mention, possibility that the writer is PROBABLY of Jewish heritage.

Josh Shellenberg

Probably NOT Irish, or Polynesian.

Yet another twenty something, liberal, free speaking, college student, of possibly Jewish heritage, COMPLAINING about the country that ALLLOWS him to be all that. We are the primary country that liberated Europe from those mean old Nazis too. You remember them, the ones with he furnaces.

Posted by Steve at February 17, 2005 01:20 PM

"How many Londoners go to Poland to see the European bison?"

I dont know, but i've seen the bisons in Latvia.

"There are certainly a lot of things you can see in Europe that you can't in the United States -- medieval castles, for example -- but "other cultures" isn't one of them. "
Trust me, you cant experience italian culture anywhere else in the world but italy. Yes you can speak the language, but the language ( and pizza ) does not a culture make. You'd have to import entire cities and countrysides to truly experience the culture of the place.

Posted by kert at February 17, 2005 02:04 PM

This subject was done to death on usenews recently.

But my $0.02 - I've lived in the US, I've lived in France, I live in the UK and I spend about 10% of the year in the US.

Bits of the US suck verilly. Bits of the UK suck too - bits of France are vile, although having just got back from Cannes, bits are pretty nice.

I like Seattle, a lot. I spend a reasonable part of the year there on business.

Something like 70% of the British population travel abroad every year, but Ed Wright (oh help me now ;) ) is correct, a lot of them are going on their 2 weeks to Spain to find a place that serves English food.

However, that aside, pure geography and the advent, in Europe, of lower cost airlines means that more Europeans can travel to more countries and experience more things than their American counterparts. Regardless of other factors that does have an impact on how they will view other countries.

Somebody on Usenews put it better than I can. "Americans place a lot of store in lots of different races living in the US, the European place a lot of store in different countries and languages and legal systems. There's probably not much in it."

I think that on average Europe sucks about as much as the US - but they suck for different reasons.

Posted by Daveon at February 17, 2005 03:40 PM

>Do the French quarter of New Orleans, San Francisco's Chinatown, and Spanglish-speaking South Texas have more in common than Paris and Madrid?

Yes.

Sorry. But the reality is they have almost certainly "bought" into the USA in a way that no European citizen has yet bought into the concept of "Europe". That can, and possibly, will change.

But an immigrant living in the US will have more similar personal core values than an immigrant living in 2 different European countries. That is part of the probably with deal with the concept of European integration.

Posted by Daveon at February 17, 2005 03:43 PM

> Trust me, you cant experience italian culture anywhere else in the world but italy.

You've never heard of "Little Italy"? You should meet my in-laws.

Posted by Edward Wright at February 17, 2005 03:51 PM

> Sorry. But the reality is they have almost certainly "bought" into the USA
> in a way that no European citizen has yet bought into the concept of "Europe".

Have you ever visited South of the Mason-Dixon line???

That statement reminds me. The last time I was in London, a young man walked up to me, sneered, and called me a Yankee.

If Europeans are supposedly so informed about foreign affairs, how is they think all Americans are Yankees?

Posted by Edward Wright at February 17, 2005 04:02 PM

>If Europeans are supposedly so informed about foreign affairs, how is they think all Americans are Yankees?

How come Americans call all Brits are "Brits"? I often see Americans calling Scots and Welsh Brits when what they really mean is English - it's the same difference with you guys and Yankees. Many of us know about the distinction, but use it anyway to annoy you...

As it happens, as I'm sure you know, there's a lot more about "foreign affairs" than the US. We could start trading nightmare stories about Europeans who have done dumb things in the US verses USians who have done dumb things in the EU.

On the little Italy thing... I'm half Irish, I qualify for an Irish passport - in fact I'll soon have one, plus a "Brit" one. Am I Irish? Am I hell. Do I think that going drinking in my local O'Neills (a pub chain) makes me Irish? No. Does eating Bacon and Cabbage make me Irish? No. Why? 'cos at the end of the day I'm not. People can think they are culturally something all they like, but that doesn't make it true.

Posted by Daveon at February 17, 2005 04:17 PM

> How come Americans call all Brits are "Brits"?

Because A is A. (See Rand, Ayn.)

> I often see Americans calling Scots and Welsh Brits when what they really mean is English

Why would they mean that? Scotland and Wales are part of Great Britain. They are not part of England.

> On the little Italy thing... I'm half Irish, I qualify for an Irish passport -
> in fact I'll soon have one, plus a "Brit" one. Am I Irish? Am I hell.

Little Italy has lots of pure-blooded Italians. Unless you want to go back several generations and run DNA tests.

Of course, if you go back far enough, most "Englishmen" probably have some Viking blood, or Irish, or something else. Does that mean they aren't Englishmen?

>People can think they are culturally something all they like, but that doesn't make it true.

We were talking about culture, *not* genetics.

Posted by Edward Wright at February 17, 2005 04:33 PM

The cultural differences between Boston and Atlanta, Portland and Tampa, or San Francisco and Dallas pale in comparison to the differences between Warsaw and Edinburgh, Paris and Riga, or Barcelona and Oslo. For that matter, there's more of a difference between Cornwall and Berkshire than between Columbus and Albequrque.

We Americans watch the same TV and movies, go to the same restaurants, attend the same kind of sporting events, etc., etc.

The differences are there, but they are increasingly self-conscious. (E.g., Southerners and New Englanders maintaining and exagerating their accents as a mark of identity.)

Europeans are way behind us on the homogenization curve, but they'll get there.

(Oh, and Steve: Nice bit of anti-Semitism. Go find an appropriate hole.)

Posted by billg at February 17, 2005 05:40 PM

"Something like 70% of the British population travel abroad every year..."

What percentage of Luxembourgers travel abroad each year? If "traveling abroad" includes travel to the neighboring European countries, it's meaningless to compare to American travel habits -- we don't get credit for traveling abroad when we visit other states, after all (even when they claim to be "a whole 'nuther country").

"USians"? Is that anything like that silly "USericans" term embittered Canadians like to use?

"How come Americans call all Brits are "Brits"? I often see Americans calling Scots and Welsh Brits when what they really mean is English - it's the same difference with you guys and Yankees."

I use "Brit" as the collective term for citizens of the UK because I was instructed to do so by an English friend. Was she wrong in telling me that "English", "Scots", and "Welsh" are terms of specific regional/ethnic relevance, while "Brit" is the proper collective term given all three regions/ethnicities are parts of the "British Isles"? I sure hope not..."UKians" sounds just as silly as "USians".

Posted by T.L. James at February 17, 2005 05:57 PM

> We Americans watch the same TV and movies

Really? Do you think Spanish-speaking Americans watch the same TV and movies you do, instead of Spanish-language programming? That the Pennsylvania Dutch watch TV and movies at all?

That Europeans *don't* watch American TV shows and movies?

A while ago, I understand, "Dallas" was the most popular TV show in Sandinavia. Who do you think is more likely to watch J.R. -- a European, an Alaskan Eskimo, or a Pennsylvania Dutch farmer?

> go to the same restaurants, attend the same kind of sporting events, etc., etc.

You don't have ethnic restaurants in your town?

Do you think rodeo is a popular sport in New England?

Posted by Edward Wright at February 17, 2005 06:48 PM

You can read a printable version of the article without having to register with the website.

http://tinyurl.com/4e2y8

Only reasons 6 through 10 this week. Reasons 1 through 5 are in next week's column.

Posted by Karl Sackett at February 17, 2005 09:28 PM

No. 10: People tip hairdressers?

No. 8: What kind of whackball would refer to both Reagan and Clinton as "proper" candidates??? To me, the definition of "proper" rests solely in candidate ideology, and Reagan and Clinton represent two highly different species.

No. 7: There's a reason for that. The House represents the people, and the Senate represents the state governments. Well, that was the original plan...

No. 6: How many Americans work 80-hour weeks? Or even 60? I have no PDA, have only a vague notion of what a Blackberry is, do no conference calls, no long commutes, no business travel. Just like tons of other Americans (although they may be a bit more gadget-savvy than I am).

We're being lectured on taking it easy? What countries are known for massive unruly mobs greeting a visiting world leader in united discord? Every time I see that kind of scene on TV, the visiting world leader is G. W. Bush, and the country is somewhere in Europe. You never see Schroeder or Chirac get a reception like that over here - although they deserve it.

Posted by Alan K. Henderson at February 17, 2005 11:44 PM

>>You've never heard of "Little Italy"?

We probably have somewhat different definitions for culture. Put simply, IMO the geographical location ( landscapes, cities, heck even sunsets ) is an integral part of what we call a "culture". Yes you can have ethnic communities of italians, chinese etc all over the world, but living there doesnt mean you know italy and italian culture.
As simple test case: IMHO its impossible to get an idea about andalusia without visiting the place, no matter how many andalusians you might have met elsewhere. I was there recently, and regardless of what i had read, seen and heard before it was still different from what i expected.

Posted by kert at February 18, 2005 02:28 AM

> IMO the geographical location ( landscapes, cities, heck even sunsets ) is an integral part of what we call a "culture".

Your opinion of what the word means is irrelevant. "Culture" refers to things that are created or manufactured by a society. Either physical things (pottery, art, etc.) or less tangible things, such as music and dance. It does not include natural phenonmon such as landscapes, sunsets, etc. Culture is studied by anthropologists. Landscapes are studied by geographers/geologists.

> Yes you can have ethnic communities of italians, chinese etc all over the world, but living there
> doesnt mean you know italy and italian culture.

Irrelevant, because I never said you could "know Italy" without visiting it.

I said that Americans could experience other cultures without leaving the US.

I also said that the variety of cultures one can experience in the US is probably as great as in Europe. Please focus on what I said, not what you think I said.

> As simple test case: IMHO its impossible to get an idea about andalusia without visiting the place,
> no matter how many andalusians you might have met elsewhere. I was there recently, and
> regardless of what i had read, seen and heard before it was still different from what i expected.

Test case for what? That has nothing to do with this conversation.

Whether the Andalusians met your expectations has nothing to do with the claim that LA valley girls, Mexican Americans in South Texas, and Pennsylvania Dutch farmers all watch the same TV shows.

Please tell me why you think it is harder for an American to experience Andalusian culture without leaving the United States than it is for a European to experience Cherokee or Arapaho culture without leaving Europe.

Posted by Edward Wright at February 18, 2005 10:50 AM

Edward Wright:

When I turn on my local Spanish language channel, I see sports, news, games shows, soap operas, comedies and cop shows. Bey you see the same thing on your English channels.

And, you aren't seriously arguing that a Thai restaurant in one part of the country is much different than a Thai or whatver restaurant in another part?

The thrust of my argument is that the U.S. is much more homogeneic than Europe. There isn't nearly as much cultural shift driving, say, from Columbus to Denver as there as in driving from Paris to Ankara.

Europe is, in fact, less homogenous, and distinctly different cultures exist there in smaller areas and within greater proximity to each other than in the U.S.

Posted by billg at February 18, 2005 12:07 PM

The passport thing has always been a farce to me. I recall during the Cold War, it was a bragging point that Americans didn’t have to carry “documents” to travel between the states. I remember it being a topic in the movie “Hunt for Red October”. Yet in Europe, you may need a passport just to check in to a hotel in your own country. So yes, I expect more Europeans to own passports.

Posted by Leland at February 18, 2005 01:19 PM

"Europe is, in fact, less homogenous, and distinctly different cultures exist there in smaller areas and within greater proximity to each other than in the U.S."

Yes, and they mostly hate each other's guts, as demonstrated by several centuries of constant warfare. Good thing they're so well-traveled.

Posted by Toren at February 18, 2005 03:19 PM

> When I turn on my local Spanish language channel, I see sports, news, games
> shows, soap operas, comedies and cop shows. Bey you see the same thing on your
> English channels.

Really? Do you find a lot of masked wrestling on English-language TV? Do you think a lot of Mexican soaps get dubbed into English?

> And, you aren't seriously arguing that a Thai restaurant in one part of the
> country is much different than a Thai or whatver restaurant in another part?

How does that make it *harder* for Americans to experience Thai culture?

You're making the "anti-globalization" argument: the fact that you can get McDonald's or Thai food wherever you happen to be is somehow evil.

Sorry, I don't agree. Giving people more choices is good. Having choices does not make America more homogenous, but less. (I don't know about "homogeneic" because I don't know what that word means, and neither does the dictionary.)

> There isn't nearly as much cultural shift driving, say, from
> Columbus to Denver as there as in driving from Paris to Ankara.

Last time I checked, Ankara was in Asia, not Europe.

> Europe is, in fact, less homogenous, and distinctly different cultures
> exist there in smaller areas and within greater proximity to each other than in the U.S.

Smaller than the walk from Chinatown to Little Italy? Sorry, I don't believe it.

Why do you avoid my point about the Pennsylvania Dutch? Just one of many groups who came to the US because they weren't allowed to practice their way of life in diverse, tolerant Europe. Do you believe they watch the same television programs found on English- or Spanish-language TV -- or that they watch TV at all?

Posted by Edward Wright at February 18, 2005 04:32 PM

> Yes, and they mostly hate each other's guts, as demonstrated by several
> centuries of constant warfare. Good thing they're so well-traveled.

Which is why millions of Americans have travelled overseas -- on military travel orders, not passports -- to settle European wars.

I suppose stopping them from killing one another is another sign of how we don't respect or understand their cultures.

Posted by Edward Wright at February 18, 2005 04:49 PM

If you can discern a significant cultural difference between Mexican wrestling and WWF wrestling, more power to you. Ditto soaps.

Re: Thai restaurants -- I wasn't arguing that they make it harder to experience different cultures. I was refuting your point the ethnic restaurants are different in different regions.

Turkey is European. Ditto Russia. The western Europeans just don't like to admit it.

The number of cities in the states with "Little Italy" sections and "ChinaTowns" can be counted in the single digits. The rest of us visit them as tourists and go back to our Hiltons and Holiday Inns.

And what is your point about the Pennsylvania Dutch? The Dutch are confined to a few counties in about 3 states.

Listen, I've asserted that the U.S. is more homogenous than Europe, not that it is blandly and plainly all the same. I have not asserted that Europeans are tolerant, when in fact there's ample evidence that they can be grossly intolerant.

Posted by billg at February 18, 2005 05:00 PM

> If you can discern a significant cultural difference between Mexican
> wrestling and WWF wrestling, more power to you. Ditto soaps.

So, you think US and Mexican soaps are the same -- but French and Spanish soaps are not??? Evidence, please.

> Re: Thai restaurants -- I wasn't arguing that they make it harder to experience
> different cultures. I was refuting your point the ethnic restaurants are different
> in different regions.

No, you were failing to refute that point -- which wasn't *my* point, anyway.

The fact that Thai restaurants are found in many parts of the US doesn't prove there are *no* differences between regions. When I point out genuine differences between regrions -- the lack of rodeo in New England, for example -- you ignore them.

You still aren't accurately quoting my points, let alone refuting them.

> Turkey is European.

Look at a map. A very small part of Turkey is in Europe. Most of Turkey is in Asia. The Asian part includes Ankara, which is what we were talking about. No part of Ankara is in Europe.

> The number of cities in the states with "Little Italy" sections
> and "ChinaTowns" can be counted in the single digits.

So? You say that Thai restaurants don't count because there are too many of them -- and Chinatowns don't count because there are too few?

What about all the Chinese restaurants that are found outside of Chinatown?

> And what is your point about the Pennsylvania Dutch? The Dutch are confined
> to a few counties in about 3 states.

My point, once again, is that the European conceit that anyone who does not travel outside the US never must be ignorant of other cultures is *wrong*.

> Listen, I've asserted that the U.S. is more homogenous than Europe

Asserting is not the same as proving.

You "assert" that the US is more homogenous because only a few US cities have Chinatowns or Little Italy sections. How many European cities (outside of Italy) have Little Italies?

More to the point, since turnabout is fair play, how many have Apache, Cherokee, or Navaho sections? Any?

I can't think of any Native American culture that is found in Europe. You can't think of any native European culture that *can't* be found in the United States. Yet, you claim the United States is "more homogenous"? How does having more cultures within its borders than Europe make it more homogenous?

Posted by Edward Wright at February 18, 2005 07:06 PM

It's simple--he changed the definition of homogenous while you weren't looking. If you weren't such an arrogant American, always thinking you knew the meaning of the words in your native language, this wouldn't be an issue.

Posted by william at February 19, 2005 02:25 AM

> How many European cities (outside of Italy) have Little Italies?

How many US ones do? Most of the large ones have a number of ethnic "little towns" - it's a pointless discussion of the MDIBTY variety.

I am surprised there's no Rodeo in New England as if memory serves there are a couple of Rodeo groups in England.

The rest of this discussion has degenerated beyond all rational discussion. Ed, have you ever been to Europe? You seem to be acting like an expert on the continent.

Posted by Daveon at February 20, 2005 05:26 AM

>> How many European cities (outside of Italy) have Little Italies?

> How many US ones do?

Plenty.

> Most of the large ones have a number of ethnic "little towns" - it's a pointless discussion of the MDIBTY variety.

It's evidence to support or refute your claim that America is "more homogenous." Why do you consider that pointless?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how many Native American communities there are in Europe. Or are European cultures the only ones that count?

> Ed, have you ever been to Europe? You seem to be acting like an expert on the continent.

Yes, I have. Have you ever been to an American Indian nation?

Spending time in one US city does not mean you know everything about America. And even Seattle is not that homogenous -- next time you're there, check out the International District.

Posted by Edward Wright at February 20, 2005 04:07 PM

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