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« Too Timid | Main | An "Insurgency" By Any Other Name »

Brought Down By Arrogance

Darth Groznii says that the Order of the Jedi deserved to be destroyed. It seems like a sound analysis to me.

Posted by Rand Simberg at May 09, 2005 09:04 AM
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Second Opinions
Excerpt: Rand Simberg of Transterrestrial Musings posted this link weeks ago, but I've been too lazy to point it out. Till now. Cause I know you want it. The Jedi Orderís mistakes in dealing with Anakin Skywalker are numerous and damning....
Weblog: Classical Values
Tracked: May 30, 2005 09:02 PM

That analysis is just BEGGING to be compared to a number of current and past world powers, and I was expecting such a comparison until I reached the end. I wonder why he stopped short?

Posted by John Breen III at May 9, 2005 09:54 AM

Also this seems to be serious spoiler material. You should have a warning. I'm not prepared to discuss this subject till after I've seen the movie.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at May 9, 2005 10:56 AM

It shouldn't be a spoiler--my impression from reading it was that it was based only on conjecture from viewing the trailer. Most of the criticism relates to episodes 1 and 2.

Posted by Rand Simberg at May 9, 2005 11:03 AM

I agree -- the Jedi aren't the pure good guys people think. In "Attack of the Clones", when Anakin reaches his mother just in time to see her die, he proceeds (as he later admits to Padme) to wipe out the Sand People settlement, men, women and children. In other words, he committed an atrocity.

But the truly disturbing part is Padme's reaction. She doesn't scream and call him a child killer. She just hugs him as though to say, "that's sad but it's not like they were people so it's okay." There are no consequences for his crime.

Posted by Kelly Parks at May 9, 2005 01:11 PM

*cough* UN *cough*

Posted by Leland at May 9, 2005 01:17 PM

You expect ethics? From George Lucas? The fans have come up with better material than he has since the first Star Wars movie. Just look at "Troops."

Posted by at May 9, 2005 01:18 PM

She just hugs him as though to say, "that's sad but it's not like they were people so it's okay."

Well, maybe they aren't "people" (even though they're called "sand people").

Are they sapient? Do they have any kind of system of ethics? Can they be negotiated with, with useful results? If one of their children was raised in a civilized environment, would it come out all right, or are they intrinsically bloodthirsty?

I don't know enough about them to say, but it's not obvious based on what I do know that wiping out the village was any more of an atrocity than killing a bear that's developed a habit of attacking humans.

Posted by Rand Simberg at May 9, 2005 01:28 PM

Are they sapient?

Without question. They operate vehicles and firearms and other complex tools, keep herd animals, use language, etc. They are a sentient race.

Do they have any kind of system of ethics? Can they be negotiated with, with useful results?

Details are sketchy but the fact that they co-exist with the other sentient races on Tatooine (with ocasional skirmishes rather than eternal war) makes me think they can be dealt with.

They aren't dumb animals. They're intelligent beings. They're nasty, cut throat, barbaric intelligent beings but that doesn't make it any less an atrocity to murder their children.

Posted by Kelly Parks at May 9, 2005 01:41 PM

ummmmm..... people: Hello? It's a MOVIE! A figment of George Lucas' imagination and a bolster to his bank account(s). Settle down now, relax- everything will be OK. -Oh, and don't turn out like those worthless Trekkies that have been put down here several times in the last week or so.

Posted by DC at May 9, 2005 08:46 PM

Best reason they deserved to be brought down: They were stupid.

"He's the chosen one who will bring balance to the force."
There's thousands of Jedi and a whopping two Sith. Balance isn't going to help the Jedi. And, in ANH, we see that there are two Sith, and two Jedi. Balance has been created.

Posted by Paul at May 9, 2005 09:25 PM

"Well, maybe they aren't "people" (even though they're called "sand people")."

Dude, you just flunked Lucas's little gratuitous exercise in colonial history. As you can see, they make crude nomadic type huts and live in tribal groups. They've even domesticated some of the local wildlife. I submit that they are, in fact, the "native" population of the planet, before the "white men" moved in to take it over and cut up their happy hunting grounds with moisture farms and cantinas. Enslaving and/or torturing enemy captives to death as an evening's entertainment is not all that rare amoungst native tribes.
Aniken Skywalker=George Custer

Posted by K at May 10, 2005 12:28 AM

If the sandpeople are the native population, where did the Jawas come from?

Posted by McGehee at May 10, 2005 09:03 AM

To get back to the topic here, yes, the Jedi deserve to be destroyed, but for other reasons, perhaps:

They act as an enforcement arm of the government, but what checks or balances are there? They seem to have Carte Blanche to do whatever they want, including killing people. Who watches the watchers?

They take young children from their parents (perhaps with permission) and keep them separated from them, either forever, or for long periods of time. By the time the young Jedi is of an age to choose for himself, he is brainwashed beyond choosing.

Other points raised:

Yes, the Jedi should have gotten Anakin's mother out of hock, but why didn't Padme? She knew what her situation was, and the boy had just saved her planet. Why wouldn't she have sent people to extract the mother from Tatooine? Gaping plot hole, George.

Also, by introducing the Qui-gon character, George kind of cheats on Obi-wan's moral choices. It is no longer Obi-wan's choice to train Anakin; he is doing it because of his master's dying wish. Blurs the lines of responsibility.

End of rant.

Posted by John K Berntson at May 10, 2005 09:15 AM

"If the sandpeople are the native population, where did the Jawas come from?

Geek moment. Ahem.

It's heavily implied, if not outright stated in Knights of the Old Republic (2, I think), that the Jawas are as close to the original inhabitants of Tatooine as anyone knows. The Sand People (Tusken Raiders) are old, but not as old as the Jawas. Tatooine apparently has a long, long history of being colonized, having the colonies collapse, and being colonized again, over and over.

Now, granted, none of this is from the movies, so, grain of salt and all.

Posted by Noah Doyle at May 10, 2005 11:16 AM

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