Transterrestrial Musings

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"my trolls"

That's a good one!

Posted by Offside at April 24, 2007 12:48 PM

First, is there a real Reuters link?

Posted by Bill White at April 24, 2007 12:54 PM

Hey, one man's anti-violence protester is another man's Jihadist.

All that these pictures show is that they have an expanded version of the Second Amendment. RPGs don't kill people, people kill people.

That may sound like a joke, but it's actually the straight truth. Gazans really do think of these weapons as RKBA.

So do Iraqis. What you have in Iraq is private militias against a standing army (the US Army). What did the Founding Fathers have to say on that topic?

Posted by at April 24, 2007 01:02 PM

What did the Founding Fathers have to say on that topic?

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't say that they were seeking "anti-violence" while marching with RPGs (or muskets).

Posted by Rand Simberg at April 24, 2007 01:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't say that they were seeking "anti-violence" while marching with RPGs

No, weapons don't hurt people all by themselves. If someone totes an RPG, that could be just protection, not violence.

Now, I personally think that Gaza and Iraq are horrible places to live. But it is indeed the logical conclusion of the NRA's positions. They take the RKBA even more seriously than (all but a few) Americans. And, to fill you in with an answer, the Founders said that a standing army will never win against an armed populace. In the case of Iraq, they have a point.

Posted by at April 24, 2007 01:22 PM

If someone totes an RPG, that could be just protection, not violence.

And someone marching in an "anti-violence parade" would be protecting themselves from...? With an RPG?

Do you realize what an ass you're making of yourself here? That's why I used the word "trolls."

Posted by Rand Simberg at April 24, 2007 01:26 PM

And someone marching in an "anti-violence parade" would be protecting themselves from...?

From the pro-violence people who are against the parade, of course.

Once you accept the position that weapons don't kill people, people kill people, you might as well allow RPGs for protection. Gazans do in fact need them for that purpose.

Posted by at April 24, 2007 01:30 PM

From the pro-violence people who are against the parade, of course.

So, there will be "pro-violence" people against the parade, against whom an RPG will be required?

Do you have any idea how hilariously stupid you come across as?

Posted by Rand Simberg at April 24, 2007 01:38 PM

Nameless troll, what exactly do you think "protection" means? Killing random Jews?

Posted by Rick C at April 24, 2007 01:39 PM

Sounds like you are asking whether someone realizes how ironical a sententious comment about irony is, Rand.

Posted by Carl Pham at April 24, 2007 01:46 PM

So, there will be "pro-violence" people against the parade, against whom an RPG will be required?

In principle, yes. The protesters are marching against Hamas and Fatah militants who have their own weapons, including RPGs. They are marching against the same people that Israel has hit with missiles fired from helicopters. If Israel needs that level of firepower for its protection (which in some instances it does, in my view), why not RPGs for personal protection?

This plain truth, which may surprise you, is that there are a few regions in the Middle East where it's perfectly ordinary for people to brandish machine guns and RPGs. Even Paul Bremer, when he ran Iraq, signed an edict allowing any Iraqi adult over 25 to buy a fully automatic rifle. When he signed that law, he called it RKBA.

Now, I thought that you weren't afraid of guns; guns don't kill people, people kill people. Aren't you, or are you?

Nameless troll, what exactly do you think "protection" means?

In this case, it means protecting yourself from Islamic militants who have even more weapons.

Killing random Jews?

There weren't any in sight; this is Gaza.

Posted by at April 24, 2007 01:56 PM

Hmmm, glancing at the rpg round, it appears to be an RPG-7V which is a HEAT round (High Explosive Anti-Tank). That doesn't seem very useful against other militia forces unless someone has an armored vehicle that can stop AK-47 rounds.

The fragmentation round, OG-7V is considerably thinner.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at April 24, 2007 02:52 PM

That doesn't seem very useful against other militia forces

On the contrary, the page you linked says "It can also be used against enemy troops in field shelters and in different fortifications."

When it comes to self-defense, people don't always pick the perfect instrument. There is a tendency to grab what is convenient, especially if it is more than adequate.

Besides, brandishing weapons in Gaza is so common that it goes beyond defense against specific threats, and also works as an expression of authority. Which is also part of the point of the RKBA.

Posted by at April 24, 2007 02:56 PM

I'm a very peaceful man myself.

That's why I own lots of guns & ammo,so things stay peaceful.

Posted by Frantic Freddie at April 24, 2007 04:35 PM

Right. Like they're going to trip over a pillpox during their parade. I'm just pointing out that we have a guy hamming it up for the camera with a weapon totally inappropriate for protecting crowds.

In any case, I wonder who thinks this parade is "against" violence? Maybe someone told the reporter a big whopper.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at April 24, 2007 04:58 PM

Earthlike planet alert! Potentially earthlike planet at 3:00.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=450467&in_page_id=1965

Posted by anon at April 24, 2007 06:06 PM

Your right Karl, I also noticed the shaped charge nature of the warhead as well. Good for vehicles, armor, and lightly fortified bunker type positions. Sure someone could fire into a crowd with it but not an ideal use of this type of munition. Probably what little resources they have go into procuring weapons that would be most effective against Israeli forces. Of course, I doubt they even have the acumen to understand the proper tactical application.

To some degree, yes, there is the notion of peace through superior firepower. However, the purpose of a demonstration is to convey a message or a theme. I think it is perfectly acceptable to point out the mixed message. Even the U.S.S.R never made it such a stretch as to parade military equipment through Red square and call it a non-violence parade.

Posted by Josh Reiter at April 24, 2007 06:30 PM

Up is down, and black is white. Get with the program, folks.

People who want to commit complete genocide against another people are anti-violence protestors, and because they want to use firearms to do the deed (as opposed to machetes, which were popular in a recent genocide), they OBVIOUSLY are no different than your average NRA member.

Posted by Big D at April 24, 2007 06:48 PM

There are indeed ironies within ironies since many of the posters seem to have fully supported arming the students at Virginai Tech to stop would be killer-Chos.

= = =

My preferred long term solution for Israel & the Palestinians?

Finish that big wall, tall and stout, and deploy look down radar and artillery batteries to promptly hit (90 seconds being prompt) any location from which mortars or rockets are fired over the wall.

Evacuate every Israeli settlement east of that Big Wall.

Then pour billions of dollars in economic aid into the West Bank to create a viable economy.

However, one drawback to my plan seems to be that Israel's economy depends on low wage Arab workers, not unlike low wage Mexican workers here in America.

Posted by Bill White at April 24, 2007 08:24 PM

Your right Karl, I also noticed the shaped charge nature of the warhead as well.

That is rather overreading the photo. First, the actual shape of the grenade is not clear, because the photo is wide-angle and the front of the RPG looks bigger than it really is. Second, even if it is the type of RPG that is useful against armored vehicles, that does not mean that it isn't useful against gangs on the street, or for that matter gangs in pickup trucks. And "procurement" is a stretch in this context. Weapons in Gaza are essentially donated from the outside. Both the donor and the recipient may have had in mind Israeli tanks, but certainly after the fact, beggars can't be choosers.

The point is that (a) Gazans see weapons as a fundamental basis of protection and authority, and (b) the protest was at least partly against inter-Palestinian warfare. It was "peaceful" in the sense that they didn't use their weapons.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to point out the mixed message.

Well yes, if you are THAT committed to RKBA, then it is hard to convey a convincing message of peace. It's easy for me to say that since I think that the whole RKBA ideology is flawed. But if you really believe that an armed society is a polite society, then here you are, Gaza is an example. Arabs are even more invested in this ideology than Americans.

they OBVIOUSLY are no different than your average NRA member.

Of course they're different from the average NRA member. Because for all of its bluster, the NRA does not really take the Second Amendment where some of the Founding Fathers intended it. At the end of the day, the NRA is content with rifles and handguns for hunting, target practice, and self-defense. They don't really have in mind replacing the standing army (the US Army) with a universal militia of commonfolk.

A lot of Arabs really do have that in mind. Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Mahdi Army are the sort of militias that James Madison described. Except that Madison may not have considered the consequences of his ideas in the 21st century Middle East. He may not have cared, actually. The situation now in the Middle East has elements in common with 15th to 18.th century Italy, which for whatever reason was not an example that bothered the American founders.

Posted by at April 24, 2007 08:33 PM

I still don't understand... what the heck does RKBA have to do with "anti-violence" demonstrators who are calling for genocide? That's like calling Union soldiers slaveowners because they used rifles almost identical to those carried by the Army of Northern Virginia.

How do gun rights even factor into this story? The whole basis of the "irony" is the fact that "anti-violence" demonstrators are apparently the same guys calling for genocide. If they *were* just a bunch of innocent Palestinians who were fed up with the fighting and wanted real peace, then they would be honestly "anti-violence", and the guns wouldn't really matter. The catch is, nobody really believes that that's their intent.

Posted by Big D at April 24, 2007 11:34 PM

Unfortunately, logic doesn't have Geneva Conventions to protect it from torture.

Posted by Leland at April 25, 2007 06:03 AM

anonymous, I merely compared the shape of the warhead to images of the available rounds for the weapon. The distortion due to the position of the round near the camera was taken into account (the round clearly bulges beyond the diameter of the barrel which doesn't happen with the fragmentation round). Note the round also has the brass hue associated with the HEAT round. Second, the AK-47 is a more effective weapon against unarmored vehicles for a very simple reason, it spews out a lot of bullets (each capable of killing an occupant, puncturing a tire, or breaking an engine block) while the RPG is one shot and reload.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at April 25, 2007 08:55 AM

The AK-47 is a more effective weapon against unarmored vehicles

Well, most of the armed protesters were carrying AK-47s. The RPG photo looked more dramatic because it's an "ugly gun".

Posted by at April 25, 2007 09:05 AM

Rand, you have some of the most irony-challenged trolls on the planet.

BTW - For those who are interested, the Overeaters Anonymous meeting has been move to the Waffle House till further notice. That is all.

Posted by Gunga at April 25, 2007 11:48 AM

"There are indeed ironies within ironies since many of the posters seem to have fully supported arming the students at Virginai Tech to stop would be killer-Chos."

Yeah, silly us. We want to arm the good guys and disarm the bad guys. The guys in the picture with the RPG are not the good guys.

Posted by Mike Puckett at April 25, 2007 05:09 PM

Bill White: "Then pour billions of dollars in economic aid into the West Bank to create a viable economy."

And if history is any clue to the future with such a viable economy they would rapidly start arming terrorists like Hamas / Hezbollah. That is what radical islamofascists do.

Posted by Cecil Trotter at April 25, 2007 07:22 PM

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