Transterrestrial Musings

Comments

I still wish he'd have taken Branson up on his offer to be one of the first passengers for Virgin Galactic. But I understand the desire not to be photographed hurling lunch in zero G.

But Patrick Stewart's comments? He's obviously a first-season Picard type. No wonder they made him French!

Posted by Bob at June 15, 2007 07:51 AM

I thought Kirk was from Iowa?

Posted by Bill White at June 15, 2007 08:11 AM

Those are Shatner's words, not Kirk's.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 15, 2007 08:14 AM

Patrick Stewart isn't French, and his dubiously French character would never agree with the views he expressed. Having seen every episode of Star Trek TNG several times, I think I can guess what Jean-Luc Picard's reply might be to his doppelganger: Exploring and reaching outward is precisely how we learn to become a more evolved species, and through a broader perspective become better stewards of both our existing legacy and that which we discover out in the Final Frontier.

As for Picard being a socialist, WTF? Technology has totally conquered the problem of scarcity for personally consumable resources, and the Federation is "socialist" for using it? Everybody have their own universal replicator is pretty far from government control of production. Whether that would make people lazy or they would just seek out new scarcities is another question, but calling Picard socialist is just cantankerous libertarian nonsense.

Personally, I'd rather put on a spandex onesie and have unlimited resources at my disposal than eke out a living in some dismal Dickensian toilet future. Struggle is fun to watch, but who actually wants to live on Serenity?

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 10:18 AM

Personally, I'd rather put on a spandex onesie and have unlimited resources at my disposal than eke out a living in some dismal Dickensian toilet future.

Yes, obviously, those are the only two options.

[rolling eyes at Swiderski's stilted, black-and-white world.]

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 15, 2007 10:23 AM

Look who's talking, Rand. You think an SF future is socialist utopian propaganda if there aren't lepers and bulge-bellied urchins.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 10:29 AM

No, Brian. I think the psychological term for comments like that one is "projection."

I believe in a future of abundance. I don't believe in a future in which there is no medium of exchange, as Picard did.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 15, 2007 10:32 AM

In a future where all matter and energy are trivially fungible, and every single person owns universal replicators, what exactly would an exchange medium do for pre-Singularity humans? The only purpose of money is efficient allocation of resources, so why have it if that becomes trivial? Moreover, how does the absence of an exchange medium equal "socialism," given that no government control of production was ever stated or implied?

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

Patrick Stewart has also made statements similar to Shatner's. It depends on the audience. You can't assume actors believe everything they say.

But Rand, Kirk was not the original Enterprise captain. You forget his predecessor, Captain Christopher Pike (who was, appropriately enough, from Mojave).

Posted by Edward Wright at June 15, 2007 10:52 AM

I think Shatner is at the age of life and stage in his career that he is probably saying what he really means.

Denny Crane!

Posted by Orville at June 15, 2007 11:02 AM

"efficient allocation of resources"

How badly did you gag on the sweet air of free market capitalism typing those words Brian?

Posted by Mike Puckett at June 15, 2007 02:11 PM

"Struggle is fun to watch, but who actually wants to live on Serenity?"

Me. In a heartbeat. I'd get along *really* well with Kaylee. ;)

Posted by Ed Minchau at June 15, 2007 02:43 PM

Moreover, how does the absence of an exchange medium equal "socialism," given that no government control of production was ever stated or implied?

No government control stated or implied???

Did you actually watch the series, Brian? Did Captain Picard's means of producing transportation services (called "The Enterprise") appear to be his personal property? Or was it owned and controlled by someone else? An organization called the Federation? An organization very much like... a government?

As opposed to the evil Ferengi, whose ships were private property owned and operated by nasty traders who wanted to (gasp!) *sell things* to the Federation.

Posted by Edward Wright at June 15, 2007 03:21 PM

Wait. You're saying the Ferengi weren't the good guys? No wonder they weren't in most of the shows...

Posted by Karl Hallowell at June 15, 2007 03:29 PM

Mike: How badly did you gag on the sweet air of free market capitalism typing those words Brian?

What are you babbling about?

Ed Minchau: Me. In a heartbeat. I'd get along *really* well with Kaylee. ;)

Kaylee goes without saying. But seriously, if you wanted the kind of lifestyle depicted in Firefly, you could find it in any sleazy third world port of call--and yet here we are, comfortably sitting in our homes in the world's richest country.

Edward Wright: Did Captain Picard's means of producing transportation services (called "The Enterprise") appear to be his personal property?

Why would a military ship be his personal property?

As opposed to the evil Ferengi, whose ships were private property owned and operated by nasty traders who wanted to (gasp!) *sell things* to the Federation.

The Ferengi steal as much as they sell, and con people at every opportunity--an accurate reflection of the realities of business. We rely on capitalism and accept its faults because it's the best system currently available, not out of some pious religious devotion to the concept.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 05:45 PM

Why would a military ship be his personal property?

It wasn't a military ship. Star Trek humans had "evolved beyond" such things. Although the Enterprise might have enough firepower to destroy a planet, Gene Roddenberry and Paramount insisted that Star Fleet was not a military organization.

It was more like what your dream of what NASA should be, but with really big guns.

> The Ferengi steal as much as they sell, and con people at every opportunity--
> an accurate reflection of the realities of business.

Yes, Brian, the TNG writers were as loopy as you. :-)

Posted by Edward Wright at June 15, 2007 06:37 PM

phasers, photon torpedoes, not typical hardware on
a vessel of exploration. The whole series canon has fudged on exactly how this came about.Roddenberrry, seemed to model the original show on some cross between European colonialism
and the Cold War, with the Prime Directive aways getting lost at the last minute. References to Khan, and Col. Green, suggest the transition was quite brutal. How much brutality is suggested in
the Mad Max like Star Chamber arising out of the
chaos of the nuclear devastation of WW 3, hinted
in the opening episode of TNG. The socialist or should we say, communitarian aspects of Trek are clearly seen with their trips back to the 19th century, to face the original curmudgeon, Mark Twain, the Depression era Earth in the "City on the Edge of Forever",1980s Earth in Star Trek IV,
the painfully earnest episodes set in the 50s and conversely the dystopian mirror worlds, episode that permeated the series. Then DSN suggested the change began with an uprising in the Sanctuary districts (shades of Obama's latest riff on Katrina)Enterprise, clearly suggests the guidance of the originally militarist Vulcans; as deu ex machina: had much to do with it. Basically, they
gave up on a reason.

Posted by narciso at June 15, 2007 07:28 PM

It wasn't a military ship.

It wasn't solely a military ship.

Star Trek humans had "evolved beyond" such things.

They never claimed to have evolved beyond the need for defense.

Although the Enterprise might have enough firepower to destroy a planet, Gene Roddenberry and Paramount insisted that Star Fleet was not a military organization.

I don't recall ever hearing Paramount take an official position on such trivia, but I'm guessing Roddenberry felt that Star Fleet was an exploration and diplomacy agency that fulfilled military functions as needed. Either way, Enterprise is a public service ship, so your characterization doesn't make sense--Picard isn't a private citizen compelled by evil "gubmint" to only use ships they control.

It was more like what your dream of what NASA should be, but with really big guns.

They explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and boldly go where no man has gone before--and they defend themselves if attacked. What's the big deal? It's not exactly Vader's Imperial Fleet.

Yes, Brian, the TNG writers were as loopy as you. :-)

They inspired a lot more people to become scientists and engineers than Heinlein ever did, and for a good reason: Their vision for the future epitomizes hope and wonder, not jaundiced speculation.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 08:41 PM

> Although the Enterprise might have enough firepower to destroy a planet, Gene Roddenberry and Paramount insisted that Star Fleet was not a military organization.

I don't recall ever hearing Paramount take an official position on such trivia

Well, gosh, Brian, maybe that's because you weren't a Star Trek writer, and the people I talked to were? :-)

Either way, Enterprise is a public service ship, so your characterization doesn't make sense-

"Public service ship." AKA government ship.

Now, how does that relate to your belief that "no government control of production was ever stated or implied"?

Posted by Edward Wright at June 15, 2007 09:36 PM

Now, how does that relate to your belief that "no government control of production was ever stated or implied"?

It's totally irrelevant. Every single Federation citizen has replicators that can make anything into anything else within the limitations of matter and energy, so obviously production isn't under the control of the government.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 15, 2007 10:19 PM

Every single Federation citizen has replicators that can make anything into anything else within the limitations of matter and energy, so obviously production isn't under the control of the government.

It was clearly shown that every Federation citizen did not have his own replicator. When Data, Geordi, and Worf wanted to get wedding presents, they went to the ship's replicator.

Not only didn't they have their own replicators, but more to the point, they didn't have their own ships. All the ships were owned by the government Star Fleet. Transportation is also a form of production.

Yes, I'm sure I'm sure you'll say Star Fleet provides unlimited free transportation for all citizens in the Federation socialist paradise. :-)

Posted by Edward Wright at June 15, 2007 11:24 PM

When Data, Geordi, and Worf wanted to get wedding presents, they went to the ship's replicator.

Their personal quarters all had replicators, and every private residence had replicators.

Not only didn't they have their own replicators, but more to the point, they didn't have their own ships.

How do you know? Do you think everyone who serves on a Navy ship doesn't own a boat?

All the ships were owned by the government Star Fleet.

That isn't true--Star Fleet is a scientific, diplomatic, and de facto military organization, not a taxi or cargo service. I don't recall a single episode in any of the series where a passenger ship was commanded by a Star Fleet officer.

Yes, I'm sure I'm sure you'll say Star Fleet provides unlimited free transportation for all citizens in the Federation socialist paradise. :-)

You ought to lay off the Ayn Rand kool-aid before watching Star Trek--it's a much better series if you watch it sober.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 16, 2007 12:14 AM

Not only didn't they have their own replicators, but more to the point, they didn't have their own ships.

How do you know?

Yeah, maybe each member of the Enterprise crew had his own starship that followed the Enterprise on autopilot, just out of camera frame. And whenever the Enterprise was about to be destroyed, they were too caught up in the heat of the moment to call on that vast armada of private ships for help. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

As much sense as anything you've written, anyway. :-)

Not surprising, since there didn't seem to be any passenger ships in the TNG universe.

However, there were numerous episodes where the Enterprise provided taxi service for some Federation official, the parent or relative of an Enterprise officer, etc. Or carried medicine, food, or other cargo to some colony.

Posted by Edward Wright at June 16, 2007 01:02 AM

Yeah, maybe each member of the Enterprise crew had his own starship that followed the Enterprise on autopilot, just out of camera frame.

As in reality with the Navy, I'd imagine anyone's personal ship would be sitting in a dock somewhere back home when they go out on a mission.

Not surprising, since there didn't seem to be any passenger ships in the TNG universe.

I vaguely recall episodes with passenger ships, but I don't recall any of them being Star Fleet.

IIRC, most of the cargo they delivered was both to and from Star Fleet, with some going to aliens as part of diplomatic missions, and the remainder to Federation colonies that hadn't yet become fully established. As for transportation, taking Federation officials would obviously be part of their mandate, and taking crew family members on board reflected that Enterprise D was more like an entire base than a ship.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 16, 2007 02:55 AM

As in reality with the Navy, I'd imagine anyone's personal ship would be sitting in a dock somewhere back home when they go out on a mission.

Laugh. In reality, Brian, the Navy does not give every sailor his own personal ship.

They give sailors paychecks, which they can use to buy personal items.

Since your worker's paradise doesn't have money and no one gets paid, how do the workers buy these "personal ships"?

Oh, let me guess, starships are free and every gets one free of charge, just like replicators and everything else? Riiight... :-)

I vaguely recall episodes with passenger ships,

Run by unpaid crews who volunteer for the good of the state. And needless to say, these amateur crewmen have all the skills and training paid professionals would.

Sure.... :-)

> IIRC, most of the cargo they delivered was both to and from Star Fleet,

That's not surprising because no one else in the Federation seemed to have a job. Not that there would be any point in getting a job since there's no money and no one gets paid.

The fact that you think TNG economics make sense is not unexpected, given all your other posts, but it is highly amusing.

Posted by Edward Wright at June 16, 2007 11:37 AM

I came back from my vacation a little late it seems. Anyway, Brian, the replicators in the quarters were actually terminals to the main ship replicators. It was stated on several occasions, and in the books that followed the series that not all citizens had replicators, they were simply way too advanced a technology. There were a few episodes as well where others were trying to steal replicators, which they wouldn't do from a starship if everyone had one.

Star Fleet was a military outfit, under the direction of a UN type body. Their main goal was to explore and seek out new life. Their other goal was to vigorously defend what they already had. Roddenberry was very certain about that portion of his vision. Imagine if the UN had military power to back up their resolutions, oh wait, they do! Imagine if they actually BACKED UP their resolutions and didn't apologize when those resolutions get enforced.

Posted by Mac at June 16, 2007 06:11 PM

Ed: In reality, Brian, the Navy does not give every sailor his own personal ship.

Ah, so now you're accusing Star Fleet of not being socialist. Either make up your mind about what your objections are or start passing out dramamine to the audience.

Since your worker's paradise doesn't have money and no one gets paid, how do the workers buy these "personal ships"?

Who says they have to buy them? Just replicate the components and assemble a ship.

Run by unpaid crews who volunteer for the good of the state.

You don't know those ships are public, and calling it "the state" just because it doesn't involve money is farcically paranoid. Crews enjoy spaceflight or do it because it's something to do, and perhaps are interested in more complicated technologies than are practical to build on their own. Or they might simply find larger ships more comfortable and/or stimulating.

And needless to say, these amateur crewmen have all the skills and training paid professionals would.

Why wouldn't they have the training?

That's not surprising because no one else in the Federation seemed to have a job.

The could be because the show is about Star Fleet. Ever notice how everyone in Law & Order is a cop, criminal, lawyer, judge, or juror? I know it's a radically advanced and abstract concept, but some TV shows focus on something in particular.

Not that there would be any point in getting a job since there's no money and no one gets paid.

Are you saying if you personally had control of a universal production technology limited only by rate, you would lose all ambition and turn into a shiftless layabout? I don't think that would be the case with me, so maybe it's just libertarians who can't function without being told what to do by money.

Mac: Anyway, Brian, the replicators in the quarters were actually terminals to the main ship replicators.

Yes, but a moot point. The terminals are allocated to and controlled by individuals.

It was stated on several occasions, and in the books that followed the series that not all citizens had replicators, they were simply way too advanced a technology.

I don't recall ever hearing that in the various TV series, although I imagine (given its character) it may have been said on DS9. Also, if I'm not mistaken, none of the books are considered canon. I operate on the assumption, as it appears from TNG, that at least replicator terminals are universal.

There were a few episodes as well where others were trying to steal replicators, which they wouldn't do from a starship if everyone had one.

As (IIRC) they're groups outside the Federation, and replicators could presumably be reengineered for belligerent purposes, I would imagine such attempts were opportunistic in nature. I don't recall whether Klingons, Romulans, and other major non-Federation species had the technology, but plenty of smaller players might want it.

Star Fleet was a military outfit, under the direction of a UN type body.

I think my interpretation is closer to what Roddenberry actually created: Star Fleet is a scientific and diplomatic corps that performs a defense role as needed. They're explorers and ambassadors, but they defend themselves and the Federation when attacked.

Imagine if the UN had military power to back up their resolutions, oh wait, they do!

No, they don't. If they did, thousands of government leaders from all over the world would be in prison for violating the Charter with acts of torture, oppression, and other crimes. Libertarians would go batshit, calling it the "New World Order," and would ally with fascists in this country and abroad to tear it down. No, what you advocate is the UN being a loyal stooge of Republican foreign policy, commandeered to grant carte blanche against smaller states.

Imagine if they actually BACKED UP their resolutions and didn't apologize when those resolutions get enforced.

If they enforced their resolutions, they would be at war with most of the nations on Earth--including the United States. That's why it's not a world government, but a consultative and diplomatic organization.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 17, 2007 03:15 AM

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