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Energy Free by 2017!

That's Huckabee's new campaign slogan. The comments are great: "In this election, we obey the laws of thermodynamics."

Posted by Rand Simberg at December 12, 2007 10:44 AM
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I dunno. I like Mike Huckabee. So what if he mis-spoke? I think we know what he meant to say.

Posted by Toast_n_Tea at December 12, 2007 11:12 AM

I'm certain that I don't know.

Posted by FC at December 12, 2007 11:51 AM

I'm fairly sure Huckabee himself doesn't know.

Which, that would be a good thing, if he knew that he doesn't know...

Posted by McGehee at December 12, 2007 11:59 AM

Alan Keyes really knows what he knows.

Posted by Toast_n_Tea at December 12, 2007 12:28 PM

I dunno. I like Mike Huckabee. So what if he mis-spoke? I think we know what he meant to say.

Posted by Toast_n_Tea at December 12, 2007 11:12 AM

What do you think he meant to say?

Posted by kayawanee at December 12, 2007 01:00 PM

Seriously, I think he meant "free of energy imports". But slips like that stick to a politician like glue.

He is very lucky the joke writers for late-night comedians are on strike.

Posted by Ilya at December 12, 2007 01:07 PM

I'm sure Ilya is right on both counts.

The only possible other interpretation would be that we would all be living in the spirit in 2017.

And of course, when we are fully of the spirit, we don't need energy; at this point any more energy would be quite dangerous.

Now that's real freedom.

Posted by Toast_n_Tea at December 12, 2007 01:49 PM

I've been living energy-free ever since my son was born...

Posted by Steve G. at December 12, 2007 02:14 PM

So what about all those eco-luddites who actually believe you can sustain 300 million people without energy? (Or at least any energy source powerful enough to drive multi-megawatt steam turbines and run an industrial economy?)

Posted by Aaron at December 12, 2007 05:55 PM

we can do it, but not for long. After a few days people who need special food, clean water or refrigerated drugs will be dead. Those that are willing to fight and kill to stay alive will last longer. But in the end it will be hunter gatherers living off the land.

Then the earth will be mostly free for all the furry woodland creatures, just as the green supporters wish.

What the bunny huggers overlook is that the guns and strength tend to be in the hands of people who aren't aligned with the huggers. We'll feed them to our dogs.

Posted by Steve at December 12, 2007 06:50 PM

Actually, I was going to feed them to the pigs I plan on feeding the hounds.

Feeding them directly to the dogs would be cruel and unusual punishment.

Posted by Mike Puckett at December 12, 2007 07:10 PM

Have you considered the possibility yet that you might be ignorant American redneck hillbilly fascists?

Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.

Posted by american at December 12, 2007 07:24 PM

Your comments work. The problem is someone just took a dump in them.

P.S. Yee Haw!

Posted by K at December 12, 2007 07:32 PM

american, when you cut and paste from that seventeen-thousand-page OpenOffice doc file which is your treasured hand-polished elaboration of All That Is Wrong With This Goddamn World, make sure that your worthy opinions are given proper context. Consider especially your audience, who may not previously have been exposed to your work. The first sentence of the pasted portion of your serious well-thought-out non-claptrap jumps right into a discussion about 'seven regimes'. However, you have provided the poor confused hillbilly fascists who attempt to comprehend your fantastic dissertation with no description of which 'seven regimes' you speak. We are left at sea, unable to connect your profound and majestic thoughts to the blog post to which you have replied, nor indeed to reality. Based on the tenor of your post, though, I will hazard, for the good of other readers, what those seven regimes might be:

1. George Bush's Amerikkka
2. Nazi Germany
3. Fascist Italy
4. Vlad the Impaler's Romania
5. Ghenghis Khan's empire
6. The Planet of Romulus, c. stardate 8128
7. Your parents' iron rule about bedtimes

Posted by Crispytoast at December 12, 2007 08:19 PM

I think "Free Energy" refers Charles E. Nergy, a convicted mass murderer that Huck wants to pardon by 2017.

Posted by TallDave at December 12, 2007 09:04 PM

Sorry, I haven't got past the point where the candidates were asked to raise their hands if they believed in evolution.

Follow up?

"Raise you hand if you believe the earth is flat?"

Posted by Denny at December 12, 2007 09:06 PM

Crispytoast, thanks for helpin' me out with that post by american. It's all so clear now, and by the way... don't ya think he has a real purty mouth?

Posted by redneck fascist at December 12, 2007 09:08 PM

"Have you considered the possibility yet that you might be ignorant American redneck hillbilly fascists?"

This has to be some kind of scriptbot or a patient at a mental ward who was accidentally alllowed internet access, there are no other rational explanations. Even Ward Churchill could make more sense.

Posted by Mike Puckett at December 12, 2007 09:17 PM

American, a few questions:

1) Are you the same obviously-not-American troll that relieves verbal diarrhea on the other blogs under that name?

2) Are you aware that your seventy gillion warning signs were written specifically with the intent of linking America to fascist regimes and are thus totally without value to any discussion?

3) Does it strike you as ironic that your "analysis" was written to scare "secular humanists" into action against a mysteriously "approaching" fascist state? Does creation of propaganda against a phantom enemy bother you at all?

4) Are you aware that, despite what continental Europeans tell themselves so they aren't paralyzed by crushing, well-earned guilt, fascism is consensual? That fascist dictators don't "come to power" but are lifted and kept there by a willing, supportive, sheeplike, Europea- excuse me, fascism-inclined populace? And that it would take at least a full generation of weaning to move a non-Eur, ahem, non-willing public to embrace those sympathies?

Posted by HitNRun at December 12, 2007 09:21 PM

1) I'm glad that my comments are working again, despite the one from "american."

2) Crispy Toast's response wins the comment award for this post. At least so far...

Posted by Rand Simberg at December 12, 2007 09:54 PM

I think American missed the one about people expressing similar opinions being taken out before breakfast and shot.

Why are there never any real fascists around when you need them?

Posted by M. Simon at December 12, 2007 10:15 PM

Oh gosh!

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. "Don't question my patriotism!"

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. "Screw Billy Dale! Sic the FBI on him!"

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. "It's all the fault of a vast right-wing conspiracy!"

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. "I have Wes Clark's endorsement!"

5. Rampant sexism. "Vote for me because I'm a woman!"

6. A controlled mass media. "Bush was AWOL -- we have the memos that prove it!"

7. Obsession with national security. "It's TREASON to reveal Valerie Plame's identity!"

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. "You couldn't trust a MORMON as president!"

9. Power of corporations protected. "Army contract for Feinstein's husband - Blum is a director of firm that will get up to $600 million"

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. "Paging Jimmy Hoffa!"

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. "Paging Larry Summers!"

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. "Paging Ricky Ray Rector!"

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. "Paging Marc Rich!"

14. Fraudulent elections. "Paging Lyndon Johnson! Paging Richard Daley!"

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Damn straight it does!

Posted by Mike G in Corvallis at December 12, 2007 10:37 PM

Carl Sagan, when responding in detail to the obvious lunacy in Velikovsky’s WORLDS IN COLLISION thesis, responded by saying that doing so “sharpened the mind for useful work."

I don’t really have the time to do this correctly, but just as something to do over a milk and cookie before bed:

American, have you considered the possibility you might be a f**king idiot?

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. During WWII, “Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism” were indeed common in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan. They were identically common in the United States, Great Britain and the Soviet Union. If patriotic displays are the sign of fascism and anti-fascism equally, then it seems to me you have proven nothing.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Nowhere on the planet is there greater legal protection of individual rights than in ignorant redneck hillbilly fascist America. The Bill of Rights, with its iron-clad protections against self-incrimination, double-jeopardy, habeas corpus, and the presumption of innocence have never been matched in human history. And these protections are being strengthened, rather than weakened over time, as confessional protections and Miranda rights clearly show.

Do you take us for Berkeley-ites? We’re not leftists. We have educations and can think critically. Point two is self-mockingly inappropriate and stupid.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Two concepts; let’s take them separately. Identification of Enemies: Al Qaeda was identified – rather slyly on our part – by the fact that they flew airplanes into Manhattan and Washington and then took credit for it. If that does not clear your bar as a realistic and accurate measure of a real – not imaginary – enemy, then you fail the Reasonable Man test. This will comes as more of a shock to you than it does to us. Second, a “scapegoat” is used to focus the rage of a group or individual on another to make up for slights and humiliations. It is the refuge of a loser… such as humiliated Germany in the 20’s and 30’s. The United States, you museum-grade idiot, is the most successful society in history: not just economically and militarily (as if that wasn’t enough) but also as the undisputed leader in science and technology, the arts, music, film and overall cultural influence. If there was ever a people in history less in need of a scapegoat it is Americans. YOU, however, are a loser. And your search for a scapegoat is rather pathetically unraveling.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Look at photos of genuinely fascist regimes: everyone is in uniform in 1930’s Germany. How many military uniforms do you see, today, in an American shopping mall, sporting event, or simple drive down the street? You’re an idiot. And you’re not an American, clearly… Socky McPuppet.

5. Rampant sexism. You describe Fascist societies as “male-dominant.” Watch American TV – which is the cultural pulse – and tell me where you have EVER seen a less ‘male-dominant’ paradigm: men are portrayed as idiots, louts, well-meaning dofuses, crybabies or rapists. This is the least ‘male-dominant’ society on record. Please elaborate on the “draconian laws” that keep women in their place in this country. I have four bosses, and three of them are women. And I am now beginning to see that these arguments of yours are so pathetic that I am beginning to suspect my friend Rand is having me on.

6. A controlled mass media. You must be referring to those vast right-wing juggernauts of CBS, CNN, MSNBC: all in lockstep with the “ruling elite.” Not a word of criticism of those in power is ever heard there! Rand! You bastard! I’m onto you.

7. Obsession with national security. I am obsessed with national security to the extent that I think that’s where the threats are. But I am not a member of the ‘secret national security apparatus.’ Protesters march every weekend in this country and mouth the most vile personal attacks against elected officials without any repercussions. Now what is the difference between a Secret National Security Apparatus that never takes any action, and no ‘apparatus’ at all? That’s right. None. Idiot.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. President Bush appears to be a genuinely religious man. He has that right, you moron. Please show me where Bush (or anyone) has forced religious convictions, training, attendance or philosophy on anyone Hello? Idiot? Are you still there?

9. Power of corporations protected. The next sentence has within it, “although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control…”Hahahahahaha!!! Hilarious! You’re a comedy genius. As to corporations, it is true they do not obey the same laws as ordinary citizens. The rules corporations must follow – environmental, regulatory, etc. – are many orders of magnitude more restrictive than those people must follow. Those that fail to obey the laws are put in jail. Google KENNETH LAY, you nitwit. Furthermore, you make the common leftist pinhead assumption that a corporation is a titanium BattleMech dropped from orbit. A Corporation, moron, is nothing more than a group of people banding together for a common goal. I am myself a corporation, and a part of many others. I guess that means I’m responsible (as management) for my own strict control (as a shuffling prole.) Douchebag.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. No, you can’t turn on any of the government-controlled news outlets without seeing daily the shooting and arrest of union leaders trying to organize workers. You are a tool. Whatever decline in Union power in the USA is related to the fact that more people have taken control of their lives in the information economy and function as freelancers. People are free-er (But not you. You’re still chained to idiot ideologies. They suit you. You wear them very well.)

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. I work in show biz, you magnificent imbecile. We are about to enter ‘kudos season’ – a three month orgy of no less than 20 nationally televised award shows for artists. Poor actors, their voices are soooo suppressed in this fascist culture. As for ‘intellectuals,” they do not need to mocked or suppressed. They beclown themselves with such regularity that the word “intellectual” generates peals of laughter. There is no one as stupid as Ward Churchill. I didn’t ‘suppress’ him. He suppresses himself every time he opens his mouth.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. As for the “draconian law enforcement state” see 2, above. Regarding the “glorified” police forces…. How many actors can you name? How many sporting figures? How many singers? Hundreds? Thousands? Now, how many policemen can you name? How can they stand all that glory? Moving on: Name a political prisoner in the US. No fair including guys like Mumia who parenthetically happened to kill a few policemen. Name a person held in US prisons who is there charged for political views only, without any accompanying criminal charge. Putz.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Had you been living on Earth, and not en route across the light-years from distant Asshatia, you would have noticed that in 2006 the incumbent party was thrown out of office for levels of corruption remarkably below that of most every other country on the planet. There are indeed a very few countries with less corruption than the US, but they don’t make a damn thing or contribute a particle to human advancement. To say that corruption is rampant and unchecked is to swear on a stack of Bibles that you have no idea what you are talking about.

14. Fraudulent elections. Thank you, “American,” from the bottom of my heart, for saving this for last. The Miami Herald did a very, very in-depth study of the 2000 election in Florida. Here are the facts: Bush won the first mechanical count. Bush won the subsequent mechanical recount. That is all constitutional law required. But Bush then went on the win the third mechanical count. Bush then won the hand recount, where election officials read tea leaves and chicken entrails to determine a voter’s ‘intent.’ As far as ‘judicial selection’ goes, the Constitution requires that electors be present in Washington at a certain date. The Supreme Court merely told the Florida court that it is not allowed to continue to recount and recount and recount and recount until it gets the result they desire. The Supreme Court did NOT “select” Bush. They told Florida to have their electors on time. This is the essence of a lawful and orderly society. Tanks did not roll. Gunfire was not heard in the halls of the Congress, as they are no doubt in whatever little shithole you are writing from. I voted for Gore in 2000, to my everlasting shame, and I was immediately convinced that he had lost and was deeply embarrassed by the showboating. NIXON, evil EVIL Nixon conceded the 1960 election with far, far stronger case because he new what was good for the country.

“American,” I went to some small trouble to show you that you will be better served returning to Kos and DU, realms where fact and logic – not to mention a wee bit of eduction – have never impeded the adulation due to a flimsy, pathetic rant like yours. You’re a little out of your league here, I think.

Also, you're a f**king jerk.

Hey Rand!

Posted by Bill Whittle at December 13, 2007 01:00 AM

"In this election, we obey the laws of thermodynamics."
This is a reference to the Simpsons. The teachers go on strike and Lisa builds a perpetual motion machine. Homer is upset because it "just keeps going faster" and yells "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

Sometimes when you hear hoofbeazts, it is just horses...

Posted by Stultus at December 13, 2007 02:43 AM

Whoops! I spelt hoof beats wrong. Way to ride a high horse right into the ground…

Hmmmm... two horse references in a row. Strange.

Posted by stultus at December 13, 2007 02:45 AM

All right, 'American,' you got me: I'm an ignorant American redneck hillbilly fascist. I drink, I smoke, I carry a gun, and I vote. I have nukes, and you don't. Now what?

Posted by comatus at December 13, 2007 04:32 AM

"I don’t really have the time to do this correctly, but just as something to do over a milk and cookie before bed."

My God, Bill. If that was just an off-the cuff response, I want to be in a steel-reinforced concrete bunker a dozen miles away when you deliver your correct rebuttal. There won't be anything left of "American" except a smoking crater.

Posted by Pat Berry at December 13, 2007 05:00 AM

There's no such thing as "hillbilly fascists".

Fascists dress too nice.

Posted by Barbula at December 13, 2007 06:21 AM

"After a few days people who need special food, clean water or refrigerated drugs will be dead. Those that are willing to fight and kill to stay alive will last longer."

Steve, I think you're going a little hyperbolic there. It takes more than a few days without power to turn people into the Mad Max clones you describe - just look at the number of people without power in the midwest right now, or the people who were without power following Katrina.

Posted by Ed Minchau at December 13, 2007 07:01 AM

His plan is for us all to be dead in 10 years?

Posted by SarahW at December 13, 2007 07:04 AM

Bill, that was quite a cookie-and-milk exercise. I knew there was a reason I read your stuff whenever I come across it.

Posted by Dan at December 13, 2007 07:05 AM

Bill, that was far and away the most devastating "milk and cookies" take down of an asshatian that I've ever seen. I stand in awe.

This should be nailed to the front door of Congress for all to witness. Martin Luther's got nothing on you.

Posted by nukemhill at December 13, 2007 07:40 AM

Thanks, Bill for cutting a swath of light through American's black diatribe.

I think I can see again out of my little bubble.

Posted by Chinaclipper at December 13, 2007 08:31 AM

Bill, not that I mind it here (I'm honored), but that's the kind of thing that would be a good blog post at your place, with a link back here. It would give both our sites more traffic.

Posted by Rand Simberg at December 13, 2007 08:38 AM

Free energy by 2017. Huh. OK. Put me down for all of it. Yes, I want all of the energy in America if it's free. Heck, I'll even take it all if the buy price is subsidized 90% like gasoline in Venezuela and Iran.

Posted by Sam Dinkin at December 13, 2007 10:50 AM

Bill, not that I mind it here (I'm honored), but that's the kind of thing that would be a good blog post at your place, with a link back here. It would give both our sites more traffic.

And as a bonus, maybe American will come troll you there!

Posted by kwo at December 13, 2007 10:57 AM

"Have you considered the possibility yet that you might be ignorant American redneck hillbilly fascists?"

If I agreed with you, I would be wrong, because I wouldn't be ignorant anymore.

If I don't agree with you, I don't risk being wrong by definition.

Therefore I choose to disagree with you.

Woah! Did you see that? I just used logic. Apparently they're not making us redneck hillbilly fascists quite like they used to.

P.S. Do any of you gap-toothed crackers know whether "redneck hillbilly" is redundant? Jus' wonderin'

Posted by Knowledgeable American redneck hillbilly fascist at December 13, 2007 08:15 PM

Nice one and I don't think it's redundant. The way I see it rednecks are rednecks from toiling in the sun and getting sunburnt necks while hillbillies live in the hills. Of course people might get sunburnt necks in the hills too ^_^

Posted by Habitat Hermit at December 14, 2007 05:07 AM

The way I see it rednecks are rednecks from toiling in the sun and getting sunburnt necks

Nope. The term redneck goes all the way back to England. It's a reference to the red collar that many Presbyterians wore in northern England, where that particular strain of immigration came from to the American south and Appalachia, via Ulster.

Posted by Rand Simberg at December 14, 2007 06:21 AM

"Free energy by 2017."

I'll start worrying when Huckabee appears on Coast to Coast with George Noory.

Posted by Alan K. Henderson at December 14, 2007 09:21 AM

Watch American TV – which is the cultural pulse

No thanks. US secular humanists prefer a reality based reality.

Posted by Secular Humanist at December 15, 2007 08:38 AM

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