One line stuck out to me in this piece about Professor Amy Bishop:
“You have to talk about Amy Bishop’s mental health in this situation as one of the variables, but being denied tenure when you’re in your mid-40s at an out-of-the-way obscure rural campus in the deep South is a catastrophic loss, and people don’t understand that,” says Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston.
This looks like northeastern Ivy bigotry to me, and it seems to be driven by ignorance. I think that most people at UAH would be surprised to learn that their university is “out-of-the-way,” “obscure,” or “rural.” Huntsville is a non-trivial city (it has a major NASA center, and Army R&D facility, and a vast aerospace contractor industrial base), and UAH has an excellent engineering school, particularly for aerospace (despite their having picked up Mike Griffin as a professor, though it’s probably a job to which he’s much better suited than running NASA). I suspect that, to Mr. Levin, its real crime is being in the “deep” south (just below the Tennessee border). And he probably thinks that for someone with a post-graduate degree from Harvard, her willingness to subject herself to such a benighted place is just one more sign of a mental disorder.
Several posters have suggested that the Ivies are overrated, at least in science and technology. In my area, medicine, I believe they are. After 30 years in academic medical settings in Virginia, Tennessee, California, and Colorado, I have no higher expectations of a person coming from an Ivy League background than from anywhere else. If anything, an Ivy League pedigree is a bit of a red flag, as it sometimes carries people farther than their performance would have warranted elsewhere.
While an Ivy League degree may not carry the weight it once did in the sciences, it seems to me that in law and politics, it has become even more important. How many clerks to Supreme Court Justices are chosen from the University of Illinois compared to Yale? Is the disparity in talent really as broad as the answer to that question suggests? How many current Supreme Court justices do not have an Ivy League degree? How much did the credibility conferred by an Ivy League background contribute to the careers of our most recent presidents? Obama? Bush 2? Bush 1? Clinton? Reagan stands head and shoulders over that group, and where did he graduate from? Eureka College.
I think we are poorly served by placing such a premium on an Ivy League diploma in so many fields.
Georgia is starting its first new-from-the-bare-dirt four-year public college in a hundred years. Georgia Gwinnett College is in a northern suburb of Atlanta.
The founding faculty, with the support of the state Board of Regents, decided not to offer tenure. To anybody.
They’ve had no problem filling out their faculty with talented teachers… quite a few from schools that do have tenure tracks.
There is arguably a place for tenure–I work at an institution where its loss would be a serious blow–but I don’t accept that every high school, college, and university must have it.
Boston, Boston … That’s in the Corruption Belt, isn’t it?
The difference between Huntsville and Boston: Huntsville actually DOES have rocket scientists.
…and a lot of other highly educated people.
Here in Boston, Northeastern is also known as Motheatin’ University!
After living in Denver for 25 years, I decided I wanted to move to the SE USA, having visited many times on business. Huntsville was my first choice, but the closest I could get was Atlanta. Huntsville is a beautiful city surrounded by gorgeous hills and bordered on the south by the Tennessee river. I’ve seen bald eagles sitting in trees along the river less than ten miles from downtown Huntsville. The strong industrial base is populated more by solid engineers rather than by blowhard lawyers, academics, and “social scientists”. Been to Boston many times, too. What a shithole. No comparison. None.
The probability of a female academic being granted tenure drastically declines if she has children, and Bishop has four of ’em, apparently. And if you don’t get tenure by 35, the likelihood of your doing so subsequently also drops precipitously. It’s a bit like the Armed Forces: up or out. Sad. Sad, but true.
The whole thing is such an utterly appalling tragedy that over-analysing it is superfluous. Much-loved people are dead or catastrophically injured (some of the survivors are in an intensive-care neurological unit, which does not augur well – they survived but we can infer there was brain matter on the wall behind them when the paramedics arrived), four children are likely going to see their mother get a needle in her arm, a husband will be widowed, and all the gender-baiting hucksters there are will come crawling out of the woodwork. It’s enough to make one weep.
Huntsville not rural = good?! WTF
What is so bad about rural? Snobs.
Personally I want those bicoastal lefties to keep on thinking that anywhere outside of their enclaves is the “Heart of Redness” with all that entails.
I want those disease carrying vermin to stay right where are in the economic and social basketcase hellhole bleu states. We do not need anymore of them moving to decent places and ruining them with the disease of “liberalism/progressiveism/populism” (aka Californication). They have already ruined Washington state, Arizona, Colorado, the Carolinas and Florida and are well on their way to ruining Montana-we don’t need them ruining anymore places.
“…but being denied tenure…is a catastrophic loss, and people don’t understand that,” says Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston.”
I don’t know Mr. Levin, but in giving him the benefit of the doubt, I’m reasonably sure he probably meant to continue with, “People don’t understand that catastrophic loss, but thankfully DR. Bishop put it in terms we CAN understand. Being denied tenure is a catastrophic loss on the order of three living breathing people being senselessly slaughtered.”
Yeah, that’s probably it, though truthfully, it was MUCH more catastrophic than that even, since she continued firing that gun until it jammed.
I think a lot of us get how catastrophic a loss it was, now.
While an Ivy League degree may not carry the weight it once did in the sciences, it seems to me that in law and politics, it has become even more important. How many clerks to Supreme Court Justices are chosen from the University of Illinois compared to Yale? Is the disparity in talent really as broad as the answer to that question suggests? How many current Supreme Court justices do not have an Ivy League degree?
IIRC, 8 of the 9 current Supreme Court justices are from Ivy League law schools. Does that mean the education they received is that much better or is it just the perception? To hear the Ivy Leaguers, they’re the new mandarins, the only ones qualified to run the government. I beg to differ.
Recently, I watched a video of Clarence Thomas (Yale Law) visiting a law school in Florida. He said that most of the clerks are selected from Ivy League law schools because of the justices being familiar with those institutions. He has made it a point to select clerks from other law schools and has been satisfied with the results.
In the military, I encountered similar issues with the service academy graduates verses ROTC and Officer Training School (OTS) grads. I was prior enlisted and earned my commission via OTS. In my career, I worked with officers from all three commissioning sources. Some academy grads were terrific officers and others weren’t worth squat. The worst were the “ring knockers”, the ones who wore their academy rings everywhere and made it a point to highlight their academy background wherever they went, believing that meant they deserved special consideration. Invariably, they made lousy officers. Quite a few of the Ivy Leaguers come across as no better than the ring knockers.
“Ah, some of that famous southern gentility…”
Oh, the little yankee had his feelings hurt. I hope you won’t retaliate by killing a bunch of us as what seems to be the custom in northern gentility.
“…but being denied tenure…is a catastrophic loss, and people don’t understand that,” says Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston.”
A couple more things about this statement strike me as “off-putting”.
She was “denied” tenure. It may just be me reading this into it, but “denied”? Something she was entitled to but was withheld? Perhaps he’s simply describing her state of mind, but it seems that tenure is something one “earns” or doesn’t “earn.”
I also confess to trying to imagine what other line of work, besides Academia, where a statement like this would even be seriously offered.
“but being denied a place on the back of the garbage truck because your company has switched to automated trash collection…..is a catastrophic loss…..”
“but being denied a job, because your company recently merged with another, and you’re no longer needed…is a catastrophic loss”
“but being denied a job because you have a tendency to react violently to not getting your way, ….is a catastrophic loss.”
I suspect that a lot of people faced with a potential outcome like this, especially if they are sole breadwinners, feel some sense of catastrophic loss. Most don’t respond in this way. And, they don’t get statements like this when they do.
Maybe it would have easier to understand Mr. Levin’s statement if he’d said, “Some people dont get what they want, when they want it, and they go frickin’ crazy! Doesn’t matter what they do for a living. I’m jus’ sayin’! That’s why I’m a criminologist.”
“If anything, an Ivy League pedigree is a bit of a red flag, as it sometimes carries people farther than their performance would have warranted elsewhere.”
I’ll second that. In my experience any physician who lets you know their “Haaarvard trained” has been a physician to stay away from. The many I know and have worked with are unreliable, untrustworthy, arrogant, and in the lower half of competency. I can deal with arrogance coupled with extreme competence, but those who are arrogantly incompetent are at best a waste of carbon.
“If anything, an Ivy League pedigree is a bit of a red flag, as it sometimes carries people farther than their performance would have warranted elsewhere.”
Sounds like a lot of our political leaders (on both sides of the aisle).
After a good look at our political elite, including the current resident of the White House, I have much less esteem for a Harvard degree than I once had. Such breathtaking ignorance of history, economics, even geography is not found even in our middle school students. The current political elite could not be depended on to successfully operate a hot dog cart. A Harvard education is worthless in the real world.
57 states? Corpsemen? Seriously, this is the stuff of farce. But in this we are beyond parody or mockery.
I had Jack Levin as an Instructor at Northeastern – I learned nothing whatsoever from his course, he spent the entire semester clowning around and being entertaining to the class while teaching absolutely nothing. After the final exam, totally mystified as to just what he had intended for the course, I asked him just what his course objectives were.
He replied: “I don’t have course objectives. I don’t think they are important”.
Well, they were to me and my hard-earned money.
Jackass.
“I want those disease carrying vermin to stay right where are in the economic and social basketcase hellhole bleu states. We do not need anymore of them moving to decent places and ruining them with the disease of “liberalism/progressiveism/populism” (aka Californication). They have already ruined Washington state, Arizona, Colorado, the Carolinas and Florida and are well on their way to ruining Montana-we don’t need them ruining anymore places.”
Yeap, thank god we still have great places to live in like Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee.
I taught college for most of the time between 1964 and 2001, but never attained tenure. Denial of tenure is far from the end of the world; there are even other things to do besides teaching. Among my former colleagues were graduates from schools all over the US and beyond, including (of course) Ivy League schools. There were fine teachers and scholars, and indifferent ones, even some very bad ones, from the Ivy League, just as from other places. Ivy League schools cost more to attend than most; but cost, or even prestige, does not equate to quality of education. Dr. Levin’s comment about UAH is bigoted nonsense, and I am glad he was called on it. Students who don’t get to enroll at Harvard, Yale, etc., can console themselves that, in almost any discipline, very substantial and high-quality education is available at many other institutions throughout this country.
The comment from a Northeastern Elite is what the tea parties are all about. The elites have no concept of wealth creation nor where their jobs come from or who pays their salaries. At this point in time the best education is a major state university, Big Ten, SEC, Big Twelve, etc with a technical degree, engineering, accounting, chemistry, biology, etc. Victor Davis hanson points out that people who go to the “elite” schools have a sense of entitlement. My comment is most of them can’t change a tire (they don’t know how to do anything or get their hands dirty!
Doesn’t excuse or explain her actions, but being denied tenure (and yes, that is the standard phrase) in your 40’s does truly suck. Tenure gives you job security, but in many fields the job you get doesn’t pay close to what the same person could have earned outside academia. To have invested all the time earning poorly, starting from graduate school through the whole pre-tenure process – more than a decade in most cases, perhaps two decades in hers – and then to be fired – has to hurt a whole lot. Now imagine you believed it wasn’t done on the merits of the case, but on the basis of politics or sexism. Most people would be enraged.
Now imagine you believed it wasn’t done on the merits of the case, but on the basis of politics or sexism. Most people would be enraged.
She seems to have a history of getting enraged. Imagine if she would have found some reason, no matter how strained or delusional, to blame the failure to get tenure on politics or sexism. For example, she apparently tried to kill a formerly close friend of hers during the shooting. That doesn’t sound like someone who got shafted merely on the basis of politics.
To Andrew Myers: Andrew you say it “doesn’t excuse or explain her actions”, but then it appears that’s exactly what you attempt to do; explain it to us. As did Mr. Levin. Why? Why is it important for you, and Mr. Levin to explain it to us? Because you think that if we’d just understand how much harder things in the academic world are than everywhere else, it would…..it would……what? Enrage us? Allow us the insight to see that “being denied tenure in your 40’s truly does suck”, and “being shot and killed in your workplace by someone denied tenure” are equivalent levels of “Suck”? I sincerely hope not, Andrew. I believe that “understanding” it is much too comfortable an accommodation to make. The distance between understanding and rationalizing is too slight. Perhaps that’s why we have criminologists. Explanations and understanding seem a pretty good way to insure a steady supply of criminals. Which criminologists need, I guess. God (or whomever) forbid that being denied tenure is of a worse level of suck than being killed. Because if it truly is a fate worse than death, that’s like…double suck.
infinitely_ltd, I disagree here. Understanding why bad things happen the way they do is an early step to any attempt to control or mitigate those things.
For example, this leads to various commonsense business policies, like frequently, if not always, counting the till for a money handler (like a cashier), removing most responsibilities and power from a high trust position at some point prior to departure when you know the employee plans to leave your organization, or don’t structure the rewards for an employee (particularly, an executive) in a way that encourages them to harm the company.
Where I disagreed with Andrew Myers was in the effort to imagine ourselves in this particular boat. I have been slighted by an employer before. Unlike Amy Bishop, I didn’t flip out and kill three coworkers. I imagine we’ll find also that Bishop constructed some elaborate fantasy where she wasn’t to blame for the tenure denial or her subsequent lethal actions. The fault always rested solely with the people she slew. I didn’t do that sort of thing either.
That is the flaw with the “put yourself in their shoes” approach. It doesn’t explain things, because most people wouldn’t do that sort of thing even if they were in their shoes.
Karl, I appreciate the point you’re making. “understanding” is a word that covers a lot of territory, and I should have been more specific about what I meant. Your “put yourself in their shoes” example expresses the sentiment precisely. Thanks
“Put yourself in their shoes”, or, put another way…
“To equivocate is to excuse, and to explain is to explain away”.
Kudos to Prof (Dr.?) Levin for apologizing, and doing so straightforwardly. Hopefully it is a point of reflection for him (or for someone to point out to him), that his first utterance was reflective of a soft bigotry. First drafts are always the most sincere and revealing. If Prof. Levin is man enough to apologize, he should be man enough to change.
–furious
Did anybody bother to look up the ranking of UAH’s biology program before complaining about elitism?
It isn’t ranked. University of Alabama Birmingham is — at 58th (US News). It’s not even listed, although 275 schools are.
I award the point to Levin.
Zach, I take the point away on the grounds that your reliance on a eastern magazine, who like all liberal elitist appointed itself to rank schools under the guise of objectivity and knowledge, is simply more self-serving elitism that adds no factual basis to the argument. In short who the hell appointed US News to be the ranker of schools? Please type slowly so us southerners can half-way comprehend you Yankees
This has a certain irony for me. My father was from Boston and graduated from Northeastern, then drifted south, settling in New Orleans. He got his MBA from Tulane. He took great pride in his MBA but he would hardly mention old Northeastern. He would often talk about the prejudice against Southern education that many from New England seemed to share. As far as I could tell he no longer felt that way at all.