Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, the public health, wot ‘ad th’ Roman’s ever done for us?
Brought peace?
Peace? Shut up!
Be prepared with your own Leibowitz Project!
Paper, not electrons
As a teenager I found the post-Apocalypse science fiction stories almost laughable. Every town had small machine shops and tools scattered in local companies or gasoline filling stations. The high schools had shop classes and their libraries had years of magazines like Popular Mechanics archived. Maybe a collapse back to the later Victorian Steam Age unless there was a major (more than 90% !!) death rate.
Then came the computer age where everything is shipped from far, far away and everything is one Carrington Event away from disaster. So I am not as sanguine today about such things.
As a teen I got less sanguine when the local blacksmith retired and all of his machine shop and forge (coal based) was sold for scrap or carted off for trash. Where the old smithy building sat is now an empty lot and has been for almost half a century. Farmers rely on a network of distant supply chains and local dealerships for implement maintenance.
Even in your childhood all those small machine shops required electricity. Shut that off from an EMP, Carrington event, etc and that’s all she wrote
Even in your childhood all those small machine shops required electricity.
Been meaning to comment on this. From my childhood, the answer was yes. Only because the shop used a *very hefty* multi-horsepower electric motor. Doubtful it would have experienced any trouble even during a Carrington event as long as the grid stayed up. But to my point. That motor sat in a special room off of the back of his shop. Running a single drive belt to an overhead pulley and drive system that ran every other tool in that shop. When I asked about it I was told it was a replacement for the steam engine that used to occupy that space. Regrettably one generation before my time.
Those overhead pulley machine shops could be powered by waterwheels in a millrace (and were). If, post-apocalypse, they’d be a route back.
The thing about the European Dark Ages is that calling them Dark Ages might be a propaganda campaign against the state of affairs when the Roman Catholic Church ran things.
The Greek Dark Ages were really dark. Literacy and understanding of writing systems were lost. I am relying on the late Jerry Pournelle, whom I credit with the claim that not only did people forget how to do certain things, people no longer knew those things were even possible, attributing the massive stone work of Mycenaean fortresses to mythological beings. In the European, Post-Roman Dark ages, knowledge was preserved, largely by scribes in monastaries.
Yes, there are some mysteries, especially in military tech such as what exactly was Greek fire and maybe the specialized metalurgy in certain sword blades. Recently, we are rediscovering Roman concrete tech. But other than that, what knowledge or know-how was lost?
I could not remember the author or title of the book I was thinking of, perhaps because I have not read it. Grok can remember it for me for free:
The most prominent recent book fitting this description is The Roman Market Economy by Peter Temin (published 2013, with paperback in 2017). Temin, an economic historian, applies modern economic analysis to argue that the Roman Empire (particularly in the 1st–2nd centuries CE) featured a well-integrated market economy under the Pax Romana, enabling relatively high prosperity and living standards. He estimates that average living standards in Roman Italy were comparable to those in the most advanced early modern European economies, such as the Dutch Republic around 1600 or England/Netherlands in the 17th–18th centuries—levels not broadly surpassed until sustained growth in the early modern period or Industrial Revolution era.Supporting evidence includes:Comparisons of real wages, urbanization rates, trade integration, and consumption patterns.
Temin explicitly states that ordinary Roman citizens at the empire’s height likely enjoyed a quality of life “better than that of any other large group of people living before the Industrial Revolution.”
Broader scholarly consensus (drawing on Angus Maddison’s historical GDP estimates and others) places peak Roman per capita GDP (especially in core regions) at levels not reliably exceeded empire-wide until the 17th–19th centuries in parts of Western Europe.
Another related recent work is Escape from Rome: The Failure of Empire and the Road to Prosperity by Walter Scheidel (2019). While its main thesis is that the collapse of Roman imperial unity enabled Europe’s fragmented political competition, fostering innovation and eventual modern growth, it references historical GDP data (e.g., Maddison Project) showing post-Roman stagnation or decline in per capita terms until early modernity.These views build on quantitative reconstructions of ancient economies, though estimates vary and remain debated due to sparse data. For core Roman provinces, high living standards are often seen as unmatched until northwestern Europe in the early modern era (circa 1500–1800).
Could we fall back into another dark age? Certainly. Knowledge is fragile, and in a true collapse, supply chains will collapse quickly. Arthur C. Clarke famously said that ant technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. I’ve been giving that a lot of thought. Consider a seemingly trivial example of everyday magic – flipping a switch and a light turns on. We all do it many times every day. Now, consider how many people with diverse skills were necessary to make that happen. First, you need to build the infrastructure to produce and deliver the electricity. I estimate that took over 100,000 people and maybe a lot more. You need miners to obtain the raw materials to make copper wiring and several types of steel. The miners need powerful equipment to do their jobs. Someone had to build that equipment, and others had to drill for oil and refine it into diesel to fuel that equipment. Those ores need to be transported to steel and copper mills. For that, we’re probably looking at ships, barges, and railroads. Someone had to build and crew all of those things. Metal workers need to produce the steels and copper needed to produce the wiring, transformers, high tension power lines and towers, turbines, generators, bearings, and everything else from the power plant to the electric light. Linemen had to run the wires from the power plant to the house, and an electrician had to install the wiring, switches, and light fixtures in your house. Oh, and someone had to build those switches, light fixtures, and the light itself.
Next, you have to consider the people who operate the power plant. Their number and required skills vary depending on the type of plant you’re talking about. Coal-powered steam plants require different skills than a hydroelectric, gas turbine, nuclear, or “green energy” facility. Most power plants require fuel to operate, be it coal, natural gas, or refined uranium. Again, counting the supply chain, it can easily take thousands of people to keep the plants running. All of this for the trivial example of turning on a light. Now, do our food supply. Or clothing. Or medical system. Or any of the other magic that makes up our modern society.
Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, the public health, wot ‘ad th’ Roman’s ever done for us?
Brought peace?
Peace? Shut up!
Be prepared with your own Leibowitz Project!
Paper, not electrons
As a teenager I found the post-Apocalypse science fiction stories almost laughable. Every town had small machine shops and tools scattered in local companies or gasoline filling stations. The high schools had shop classes and their libraries had years of magazines like Popular Mechanics archived. Maybe a collapse back to the later Victorian Steam Age unless there was a major (more than 90% !!) death rate.
Then came the computer age where everything is shipped from far, far away and everything is one Carrington Event away from disaster. So I am not as sanguine today about such things.
As a teen I got less sanguine when the local blacksmith retired and all of his machine shop and forge (coal based) was sold for scrap or carted off for trash. Where the old smithy building sat is now an empty lot and has been for almost half a century. Farmers rely on a network of distant supply chains and local dealerships for implement maintenance.
Even in your childhood all those small machine shops required electricity. Shut that off from an EMP, Carrington event, etc and that’s all she wrote
Even in your childhood all those small machine shops required electricity.
Been meaning to comment on this. From my childhood, the answer was yes. Only because the shop used a *very hefty* multi-horsepower electric motor. Doubtful it would have experienced any trouble even during a Carrington event as long as the grid stayed up. But to my point. That motor sat in a special room off of the back of his shop. Running a single drive belt to an overhead pulley and drive system that ran every other tool in that shop. When I asked about it I was told it was a replacement for the steam engine that used to occupy that space. Regrettably one generation before my time.
Those overhead pulley machine shops could be powered by waterwheels in a millrace (and were). If, post-apocalypse, they’d be a route back.
The thing about the European Dark Ages is that calling them Dark Ages might be a propaganda campaign against the state of affairs when the Roman Catholic Church ran things.
The Greek Dark Ages were really dark. Literacy and understanding of writing systems were lost. I am relying on the late Jerry Pournelle, whom I credit with the claim that not only did people forget how to do certain things, people no longer knew those things were even possible, attributing the massive stone work of Mycenaean fortresses to mythological beings. In the European, Post-Roman Dark ages, knowledge was preserved, largely by scribes in monastaries.
Yes, there are some mysteries, especially in military tech such as what exactly was Greek fire and maybe the specialized metalurgy in certain sword blades. Recently, we are rediscovering Roman concrete tech. But other than that, what knowledge or know-how was lost?
I could not remember the author or title of the book I was thinking of, perhaps because I have not read it. Grok can remember it for me for free:
The most prominent recent book fitting this description is The Roman Market Economy by Peter Temin (published 2013, with paperback in 2017). Temin, an economic historian, applies modern economic analysis to argue that the Roman Empire (particularly in the 1st–2nd centuries CE) featured a well-integrated market economy under the Pax Romana, enabling relatively high prosperity and living standards. He estimates that average living standards in Roman Italy were comparable to those in the most advanced early modern European economies, such as the Dutch Republic around 1600 or England/Netherlands in the 17th–18th centuries—levels not broadly surpassed until sustained growth in the early modern period or Industrial Revolution era.Supporting evidence includes:Comparisons of real wages, urbanization rates, trade integration, and consumption patterns.
Temin explicitly states that ordinary Roman citizens at the empire’s height likely enjoyed a quality of life “better than that of any other large group of people living before the Industrial Revolution.”
Broader scholarly consensus (drawing on Angus Maddison’s historical GDP estimates and others) places peak Roman per capita GDP (especially in core regions) at levels not reliably exceeded empire-wide until the 17th–19th centuries in parts of Western Europe.
Another related recent work is Escape from Rome: The Failure of Empire and the Road to Prosperity by Walter Scheidel (2019). While its main thesis is that the collapse of Roman imperial unity enabled Europe’s fragmented political competition, fostering innovation and eventual modern growth, it references historical GDP data (e.g., Maddison Project) showing post-Roman stagnation or decline in per capita terms until early modernity.These views build on quantitative reconstructions of ancient economies, though estimates vary and remain debated due to sparse data. For core Roman provinces, high living standards are often seen as unmatched until northwestern Europe in the early modern era (circa 1500–1800).
https://x.com/i/grok/share/retrZHFRfgyQpn5dDbBMtopN3
Could we fall back into another dark age? Certainly. Knowledge is fragile, and in a true collapse, supply chains will collapse quickly. Arthur C. Clarke famously said that ant technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. I’ve been giving that a lot of thought. Consider a seemingly trivial example of everyday magic – flipping a switch and a light turns on. We all do it many times every day. Now, consider how many people with diverse skills were necessary to make that happen. First, you need to build the infrastructure to produce and deliver the electricity. I estimate that took over 100,000 people and maybe a lot more. You need miners to obtain the raw materials to make copper wiring and several types of steel. The miners need powerful equipment to do their jobs. Someone had to build that equipment, and others had to drill for oil and refine it into diesel to fuel that equipment. Those ores need to be transported to steel and copper mills. For that, we’re probably looking at ships, barges, and railroads. Someone had to build and crew all of those things. Metal workers need to produce the steels and copper needed to produce the wiring, transformers, high tension power lines and towers, turbines, generators, bearings, and everything else from the power plant to the electric light. Linemen had to run the wires from the power plant to the house, and an electrician had to install the wiring, switches, and light fixtures in your house. Oh, and someone had to build those switches, light fixtures, and the light itself.
Next, you have to consider the people who operate the power plant. Their number and required skills vary depending on the type of plant you’re talking about. Coal-powered steam plants require different skills than a hydroelectric, gas turbine, nuclear, or “green energy” facility. Most power plants require fuel to operate, be it coal, natural gas, or refined uranium. Again, counting the supply chain, it can easily take thousands of people to keep the plants running. All of this for the trivial example of turning on a light. Now, do our food supply. Or clothing. Or medical system. Or any of the other magic that makes up our modern society.