OK, not much info to go on yet, but a single shooter has different implications than multiple shooters. And when it’s on an army base, it looks like a suicide murder, at least eventually. Call me a bigot, but the latter has to make me speculate about the shooters’ religious beliefs. And if that plays out, I think that it could be said that the administration didn’t keep us safe from attacks. But we’ll see.
[Update a few minutes later]
OK, the FBI is saying that this was “not a terrorist incident.” A dozen people dead, a couple dozen more wounded, by multiple shooters, but it wasn’t a terrorist incident? What in the world does that mean? If they mean it’s not international terrorism, or Islamic terrorism, then they should say that, but they just make themselves look stupid if they deny that this is terrorism.
[Mid-afternoon update]
Major Malik Hasan Nadal. Probably a Jehovah’s Witness.
Move along, nothing to see here.
[Evening update]
Had meetings this afternoon, then came home and made dinner, so not much time to follow up.
Just three points:
First, if you want to call this guy crazy, then he has millions of crazy cohorts who agree with everything he said. The only thing different about him is that he managed to survive in the US military with such beliefs for so long.
Second, I’d like to know how far up the chain of command warnings about his behavior went, and at what level they were squelched. This might tell us the degree to which this was a failure of the current administration.
Third, in response to Dave O’Neill, yes, absolutely there would have been many fewer casualties today had the people who have been issued, and trained in the use of, their service revolvers semi-automatic pistols been allowed to carry them on base (not to mention in public in one of the most liberal, using that word in its correct meaning, states in the allowing of carrying weapons by trained citizens, off base). Those military and civilian personnel were just as sitting ducks as people in idiotic “gun-free” schools and universities. I’d like to think that this would result in a rethinking of the policy of disarming military personnel on base, but I won’t hold my breath waiting for it in this administration. <sarcasm>That regulation sure prevented Major Nadal from bringing his own 9mm weapons to the slaughter.</sarcasm>
And Patterico documents the emerging politically correct and false narrative from the media.
One other point. From what I hear, his cousins and family (Muslims) are devastated and cannot understand his actions. I have no reason to believe that they are not patriotic Americans, and my heart goes out to them, as well as to the families of the victims. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that he was, at its root, driven by his own religious beliefs, warped or otherwise. If we continue out of political correctness to refuse to confront that reality, we cannot win this war.
Instead of raising the question of whether you are a bigot, and potentially insulting peaceful and/or patriotic people of any religion, why not just speculate about Al Queda & Taliban and their sympathizers?
I’m going to go way out on a limb and suggest that since they shot up “a processing center where soldiers are processed before going to Iraq or Afghanistan,” they, uh, don’t want more of our soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan, and aren’t interested in conventional methods of policy change. That kinda narrows it down.
Bob, are you saying that Al Qaeda and Taliban and their sympathizers aren’t motivated by religion?
No, I’m not saying that. There are roughly 1 billion Muslims on the planet. The overwhelming majority of them are peaceful. Why insult them? There are plenty in the United States, and the overwhelming majority of them are loyal and patriotic and some are serving honorably in the US military, so why insult them?
FORT HOOD, Texas — The U.S. Army says 12 people have been killed and 31 wounded in a shooting rampage on the Fort Hood Army base in Texas.
The Army says one shooter has been killed and two others apprehended on Thursday in the shooting and all are U.S. soldiers.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihGepAkECGoDagETVBMpPb3w7Y3gD9BPKKFG0
Another way to say what I wanted to say: we are actually at war with Al Queda and the Taliban and their sympathizers, so why not speculate about them, instead of about 1 billion people.
U.S. Army Major said to be primary shooter. He was reported as killed.
but they just make themselves look stupid if they deny that this is terrorism.
Doesn’t terrorism require certain motives? Couldn’t this shooting involve psychosis or some other form of mental illness that didn’t relate to the mindset of the victims or the public? I can imagine other kinds of deviant beliefs and syndromes that, again, aren’t intended to cause any kind of terror, but which would result in murderous behavior.
Couldn’t this shooting involve psychosis or some other form of mental illness that didn’t relate to the mindset of the victims or the public?
So you’re saying that two or three people went nuts simultaneously?
why not speculate about them, instead of about 1 billion people.
To speculate about them is to also speculate about a hundred or two million people who sympathize with them and their cause.
So you’re saying that two or three people went nuts simultaneously?
Yes, I would say this describes what happened at Columbine, for example. The Columbine assailants did care about the opinions of the public, but I wouldn’t say that those kids were terrorists. Maybe you would. Jonestown seems like another famous example of multiple people going nuts and becoming muderous. Regardless, for this incident, I can imagine a combination of mental illness + loyalty or mental illness + persecution complex could account for it. I hope this speculation is not unseemly. I just think there are many pathways to insanity.
Ok so they now they say this majors name is hassan………why does an arabic person hold such a high position in our government? You can’t trust ANY of them…….I say kick out all arabic people from the armed forces……….
It would be interesting (but difficult!) to count how many people worldwide actually might be willing to kill US soldiers on behalf of Islam. I’d be quite surprised if it is even 1% of the world’s Muslims.
I’d be quite surprised if it is even 1% of the world’s Muslims.
Willing to do it themselves? I’ve no idea. Willing and happy to cheer others on to do it? Sorry, but its tens, if not hundreds of millions, according to most polls.
Bob, are you serious with your dis-belief or just making conversation? Look back over history, especially recent history. Try listening to Al-Quaida themselves, even, Mohamed. They hate us , you too Bob, for the simple fact we exist. You are an Infidel and as such must be killed. To them it is the same as slaughtering a pig or goat. It is Ok in the kORAN TO LIE IF IT FURTHERS YOUR GOAL.
tHIS mAJOR MALIK HASSAN NADAL knew exactly what he was doing , he exucuted the men in his unit as they were being deployed to kill Muslims. PERIOD. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO BELIEVE?
why does an arabic person hold such a high position in our government? You can’t trust ANY of them…….I say kick out all arabic people from the armed forces……….
And when you consider what Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Whitman and Timothy McVeigh did, we should obviously keep whites out of the military as well.
It would be interesting (but difficult!) to count how many people worldwide actually might be willing to kill US soldiers on behalf of Islam. I’d be quite surprised if it is even 1% of the world’s Muslims.
1% of a billion is 10 million. That’s still a lot of people in my opinion.
It is a lot of people (it is a big world), but I’d hate to unfairly judge people 99% of the time.
Doesn’t sound like Rand misjudged this one. I guess he got that 1 in 100 lucky, huh?
Last time I checked, Majors in the Army were commissioned officers and career soldiers. You need at least 8 years in to make that rank. This is not some guy who Al Queda smuggled in last week.
I have a novel idea – why don’t we give the Army a few hours at least to figure out why this guy did what he did before we decide to ban all Muslims from the Army.
Im an A1C a lackland AFB . Security Forces. in my eyes there is no way this guy was a terrorist like a lot of people think. the guy was a major in the army. it took this guys whole life to get to this rank. if he was a terrorist he wouldnt have waited so long. the guy was about to be deployed i guess? i think he just went crazy. If he was a terrorist with that high of a rank, he could have gotten to some of the highest ranking people on the base or even to destroy buldings because he would have been autorized to be in. no way was he a terrorist,. im also going to say that if he was about to be deployed to iraq. then obviously he was pissed and went crazy. not a terrorist. I feel terrible for the victoms and their familys. i pray for all of them
Chris Gerrib – How about you don’t?
A “good” Muslim believes in the imposition of Sharia law over the whole Earth, and the submission of everyone on Earth to the rule of Allah (or in practical terms his self-appointed representatives). Making any “good” Muslim who takes the oath either an oath breaker or an apostate. Sharia is fundamentally opposed to the US Constitution, if only because of the “no establishment of religion” clause.
Muslims have a place in Western society. As fertiliser.
Fletcher Christian – there are about 2 million people who profess to be muslims in the US. Given the relative lack of attacks, apparently there aren’t very many “good” Muslims in the US.
I found this list of recent deadly shootings at US military bases. There were six before today, including one where a Sgt. William Kreutzer killed one and wounded 18. (Apparently not a good shot.) Also not a Muslim.
In fact, of the six previous attacks listed, only one shooter appears to be Muslim.
Chris G – practitioners with specialized skills, such as doctors, enter the service with the rank of Major, so it’s not obvious that the shooter was a long serving member of the military.
Steve Schippert ( @SteveSchippert ) of Threatswatch has been tweeting a series of counterterror questions that should be urgently pursued, and probably won’t be.
Bob-1 – has it occurred to you that casting suspicion on loyally serving Muslim service members could be a strategic objective of an attack like this, and that attacks by Muslim converts on their fellow soldiers are not unprecedented? Remember this ? – http://bit.ly/4eqo3Q
Rand – looks like you have either a Moby or random nut using the name “tiredofarabs” posting at 1458. Might want to clean up before he’s used to “prove” your supposed bigotry.
[quote]Last time I checked, Majors in the Army were commissioned officers and career soldiers. You need at least 8 years in to make that rank. This is not some guy who Al Queda smuggled in last week.[/quote]
Not if he is a Doctor.
My son is stationed at Ft Hood, any action reguardless wat the reason is behind it gits way to close to home for him and our family. He still has friends on there and thank God that his friends are okay. And we will pray for all of the of the families of the injured and killed. This is a christian nation and that should not be forgotten.
God bless America.
I found this list of recent deadly shootings at US military bases.
All six involved a lone gunman or grenadier as the case may be. And certainly, Al Qaeda sympathizers have never planned an attack on a US Army base, ever.
So as Rand wrote, nothing to see here, move along…
He’s a Doctor. Trained at Damascus University, according to Vitals.com
I’m waiting for the calls for there to have been more people around there who were trained in firearms and able to carry them…
Interesting to see it was a single gunman and he’s alive.
USA Today is reporting that Hasan is alive and in a hospital.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-11-05-Fort-Hood_N.htm
via http://drudgereport.com , http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33678801/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Looking like a single nutcase headshrinker and terrorist sympathizer.
I’m surprised he took down that many before being taken down himself on a military base. I was under the impression more soldiers routinely carried arms while on duty.
Ignorant statement.
Firearms are actually more tightly controlled on military bases than in the civilian world. Soldiers who are not MPs don’t pack heat day-to-day. Weapons are locked up in the armory when not in use, must be checked out, and after a day on the shooting range every piece of brass must be picked up and accounted for to ensure that all ammo is accounted for.
A mass shooter at Fort Hood actually would be at much higher risk if he’d tried to pull this stunt in nearby Killeen. There are more folks there packing day-to-day.
Sooner ot later, Americans will be forced to choose between freedom of religion and national survival. I know which one I choose.
“1492”
We’re gonna fly our flag at half-staff for a few days. It’s the least we can do until someone suggests a more specific way to support the people attached to the Post.
As near as I can tell the only places with stricter gun control than a military base, is a prison.
Yep, the Army is sorely lacking the true martial culture the outside world thinks it possesses. Ammo and weapons are strictly controlled and seperated. Makes it almost impossible to rapidly respond to this type of incident. You had dozens of trained people who only died because they lacked the tool.
B Lewis – Freedom of religion is of course part of the US Constitution. However, there are two points here. The first point is that is quite likely, bearing (in my admittedly unqualified opinion) on certain, that the freedom of religion clause was designed to allow freedom to choose which version of Christianity with the possible addition of Judaism was practised; it may well never have crossed the Founders’ minds that the USA would ever be anything but overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian. How many Buddhists or Hindus were there in America at the time, to illustrate the point? I’m not American, but IMHO this point needs serious examination in a rather more official forum than this.
The second problem is that being a Moslem is fundamentally incompatible with the freedom of religion clause. Moslems believe that everyone on Earth should be Moslem, and that every good Moslem should work by whatever means possible (yes, including violent revolution) to bring that about in the country in which they live. In other words, Moslems do not believe in the Constitution. The Constitution is not a document of which you can pick the bits you like. This also means that Islam is fundamentally unconstitutional in the United States.
This also means that no Moslem should be allowed to take any position at all that requires him to take the oath of allegiance. This certainly includes military officers, but I don’t know what other positions it includes – other, that is, than the office of President. And therefore and as an aside, this means that if anyone can prove that the Empty Suit ever recited the Shahada he is an oathbreaker and incompetent for office and should be impeached.
The bit about oaths of allegiance also applies to various offices in the UK, by the way; again IMHO, no Muslim should ever be a military officer, judge, police officer or MP, all of which require taking the oath of allegiance, in this case to the monarch.
One more point. A President with some courage would stand up and declare that the people killed in this shooting will be listed as “killed in action” and given a proper military burial. Plus the award of whatever posthumous medal seems appropriate.
Of course, President Hussein will do no such thing.
“Terrorism” from free dictionary: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
If the “Allahu Akbar” in USA Today quote is good, then it takes stretched logic to not call it terrorism. The same sort of logic is required to not take “Tawakilt ala Allah.” as an ideological statement before the demise of the EgyptAir Flight 990.
I infer it’s terrorism. If you’re considering being a mass killer, I encourage you to write a note disclaiming all religious or political motives if you don’t want to be mistaken for a terrorist.
I don’t think we can lay the blame for this solely on Obama. These are all Bush policies too. I do think we can credit Obama if the same policies stay in place and we have another incident in the future.
It’s weird that our military bases are still soft targets on 11/9.
I’m glad to read this morning that it was a lone gunman. My brother-in-law was already at Ft. Hood (I thought he wouldn’t ship over until early next year), but he is ok. I know he wanted to be armed during the engagement.
Reading the comments, a few points jump out.
1) Hasan went through Army ROTC at Virginia Tech, and graduated from the military’s medical school. He is not a 90-day wonder.
2) It has been standard practice in western militaries since at least the 1800s that soldiers in garrison are not routinely under arms. There are a large number of reasons for this tradition, from reducing the risk of accidental weapons discharge to simple convenience. (Most soldiers are not issued pistols, so under arms would mean carrying a rifle around.)
3) Considering that Hasan was reported as dead as late as 8:00 PM CST last night, perhaps we might want to wait on confirmation of the reports on what Hasan said. Scuttlebutt flies around a base faster than light.
4) Christianity requires that its adherents attempt to convert non-believers, or at least that’s what the nuns at my Catholic grade school told me. Does that mean that Christians don’t believe in the Constitution?
Sedar Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
“….in my eyes there is no way this guy was a terrorist … If he was a terrorist with that high of a rank, he could have gotten to some of the highest ranking people on the base or even to destroy buldings”
Part of the noun terrorist is terror and that is precisely what a seemingly random attack against a unarmed assembly of people is designed to do. It causes people to look over there shoulder and wonder where the next one will come from. Terrorists are not special forces given the task to assassinate a high value target or blow up some bit of infrastructure. No, they quietly walk into a crowded restaurant full of people who’s only important purpose is to decide what appetizers they want — then blow themselves up.
Hasan went through Army ROTC at Virginia Tech, and graduated from the military’s medical school. He is not a 90-day wonder.
And? The claim you made is that it takes 8 years service to become a Major, and you are still wrong in that regard.
It has been standard practice in western militaries since at least the 1800s that soldiers in garrison are not routinely under arms.
When at peace. These soldiers were gearing up to be sent to a war zone. And without a doubt, they were attacked precisely because they were about to head into battle.
Scuttlebutt flies around a base faster than light.
Not nearly as fast as accusations of bigotry and hollow excuses.
“I say kick out all arabic people from the armed forces……….”
I imagine those Japanese-Americans who served well and honorably in Europe, would be quite surprised (or maybe not) to hear that kind of statement…
Leland – per this report, Hasan spent 6 years after college at Walter Reed. Since he would have commissioned after Virginia Tech, and gone to med school as an officer, it appears he had at least 8 years in. Regarding not having soldiers under arms, that applies to wartime and peacetime service, at least in my military experience. Your experience may vary.
Rand – a nit. The US military does not issue “service revolvers.” The standard side arm is the M9 pistol, which replaced the M1911 pistol (what I trained on). Both pistols are semi-automatics.
I think the anti-Muslim ranting has gone too far. The US is a nation of laws. We treat everyone the same no matter their beliefs or the perception of their beliefs. We punish actions not thoughts. We apparently have a large number of Muslims in this country, but we don’t have a large number of Muslim-related terrorist attacks or other crimes.
It’s worth fighting the words of the extremists. Those who think killing innocents are a valid way to “convince” others to comply with their demands. It’s also worth pointing out the hypocrisy of Mohammad, the founder of Islam. Perhaps he just has the misfortune of being the best documented founder of a big religion, but he has done a number of things that should be reprehensible to any human being and call into question any absolute interpretation of his words. Certainly, many unjust things are done today by extremists of Muslim variety in the name of God.
Finally, I think it’s time to end the slander against most Muslims. Fletcher’s “thighing” isn’t a Muslim practice, it is merely alleged to be so by people (the sources of these accusations) who have a great interesting in villainizing Islam. There are some clear institutional problems with Islam, for example, it’s treatment of women and the glorification of violence and injustice against non-believers. But similar accusations can be made for Christianity and Judaism as well (though it is worth noting that Islam accepts these same dubious passages and, hence, is in a strong sense in a weaker position).
Mr. Gerrib – Christianity does not require its followers to convert others to Christianity on pain of death. Nor does it require its followers to lie, cheat, steal, rape and kill in the name of their religion. Neither does it require its female followers to wear a black blanket from head to foot in 100-degree heat.
Essentially, Christianity’s proselytisation is meant to be by persuasion and example. The Islamic version is often by threats of violence – in fact it usually is, apart from a lunatic fringe of what the KGB used to call “useful idiots” who convert to Islam entirely voluntarily – and, by the way, if they are citizens of a Western country ought to be prosecuted for treason. After all, a devout Muslim wants the political system of his country replaced by another – by force if necessary.
Muslims in the UK have been saying that not long from now the Queen will be wearing a burkha and Buckingham Palace will be turned into a mosque. And they mean it. Muslims are nowhere near as much of a problem in the USA as they are in the UK. Don’t let that change.
Leland – per this report, Hasan spent 6 years after college at Walter Reed. Since he would have commissioned after Virginia Tech, and gone to med school as an officer, it appears he had at least 8 years in.
So what?
Apparently you think others claimed he was a 90-day wonder. But nobody did in this forum. I certainly didn’t. Again, your lack of reading comprehension is the problem. You claimed he absolutely had 8 years of experience because he was a Major. Others corrected this assertion of yours:
Last time I checked, Majors in the Army were commissioned officers and career soldiers. You need at least 8 years in to make that rank.
You are wrong. No amount of showing Hasan’s years of service corrects your misconception.
Just admit it. Because you are making it very easy to point out your illiteracy.
Leland, I have no idea what your military experience level is. In my experience, officers need time-in-grade to be promoted. Per this site, to be promoted to Major (O-4) “in zone” (AKA, at the normal rate of promotion) it takes 10 years. Although one can by law be promoted early, if I’m reading the chart correctly, by law you can’t make O-4 in less than 6. Saying “at least 8” certainly seems reasonable to me.
Perhaps you would care to state what military experience (if any) you are relying on to make your statements?
Are you a medical doctor too? What does the site you provided have to do with medical professionals? Here’s a better site. With a little digging, you’ll find that a Medical Doctor that has completed residency can apply for a direct commission as an O-4.