A fourteen-year-old girl was flogged to death for the crime of being raped.
[Update a day or more later]
This poignant photo gallery seems related somehow.
What was the religion of the people who took over that country three decades ago? Gee, it’s right on the tip of my tongue.
[Bumped]
I’m not in America and know little of CAIR or what it gets up to, I’m sure you appreciate that it doesn’t get a lot of international media coverage.
I think a lot of Muslims feel they’ve been at a disadvantage when dealing with the West, and that they’ve often been treated unfairly, there’s a bit of a chip on the shoulder in some quarters, but for most, as always, their main concern is getting by day to day.
Bob-1 Says:
“After you do the sort, look at the list of countries, and add up the ones where even a significant portion might be fundamentalists of the sort that would whip a girl to death. For example, for a first apparoximation, I think you can discount Indonesia’s 202,000,000 entirely — it isn’t that sort of place. Same with Turkey, Bosnia, Senegal, etc.”
IIRC Indonesia has a problem with Islamic militants. They might not be implementing sharia law but they carry out terrorist attacks. Recently Turkey has seen the rise in influence of Islamic fundamentalists. Bosnia might not have sharia law but there are many jihadis from the caucuses fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Even when you take religion totally out of the equation, there is a substantial number of people in the Islamic world that hold similar political ideologies and the radicalized militants.
“Jihad” simply means “self improvement”
Here’s two definitions (no doubt you can find others that suit your beliefs):
Here’s one version:
1. First jihad is an act of fighting the demon that exist within ones soul.
2. The second jihad is to support the person who speaks the truth.
3. The third jihad is to condemn the person who commits crime or do false.
4. And fourth jihad is to fight those who attack or try to do damage to Islam.
Here’s another:
# JIHAD OF THE HEART:
to purify oneself and try to live as the prophets did.
# JIHAD OF THE TONGUE:
to speak out in support of social justice, to educate.
# JIHAD OF THE HAND:
to touch others with dignity and respect.
# JIHAD OF THE SWORD:
to fight, as a last resort, against economic and social injustice.
Bob I would reference my last paragraph in my previous post. I find the political ideology on the site to be very different from mine.
It is an interesting site to read because most of the contributors do appear to be moderate in terms of religion but hardly moderate politically from and American perspective.
O/T Wodun, have you seen Ken A’s latest post? Worrying, haven’t seen anything of him lately.
To hell with all this philosophizin’! Let’s examine the hard data and judge Islam based upon that.
@Bob-1: “Don’t look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find.”
I don’t know much about what Muslims really think about anything. But what I do know is that Andrew W and Bob-1 are a couple of moral-equivalencing (-equivolating? -equivocating?) jerkasses.
Andrew W @ 11:02pm:
With communism, the Russians by themselves weren’t enough, the conservative right had to dream up a fifth column, a fiction of communist sympathizers that supposedly existed in America, waiting to undermine the US from within.
Not fictional. Try googling “Alger Hiss” and “Harry Dexter White” and “Venona”. Get back to us with what you find.
BBB
Bob-1 @ 12:11 pm:
Just for your amusement (not to somehow score points), here’s some other similar passages (but with a more modern translation) regarding punishments for adultery, although the first one is certainly the weirdest.
I’m not a Christian, but my understanding is that Christians have something called a “New” Testament, which supercedes the “Old” Testament. I vaguely recall there was some story whose punchline was “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, which AIUI generations of Christians have taken as the Lord’s suggestion NOT to execute adulterers. Is there a comparable passage in the Koran?
a couple of moral-equivalencing (-equivolating? -equivocating?) jerkasses
I figured they were a couple of self loathing Jews.
No, Andrea, Americans are evil because they don’t let their felons roam freely (for a few years) and they even put serial murderers to death…sometimes, after 20 years of exhaustive appeals. Really, it’s the moral equivalent of murdering a little girl, you just have to think like a Marxist and play that bourgeois contradictory false consciousness like a fiddle…
That always seemed like a poorly-phrased expression: I understand hating one’s own birth culture, but is that really “self” hating? If anything, it’s a form of narcissism. Regardless, if one were in such a position, it seems you’d want to keep on the down low, which is my guess of how a lot of Muslims (at least those here in America) feel about this shit.
Bob-1 @ 6:16 pm:
If you told me that you read the Jakarta Post every day (available here: http://www.thejakartapost.com ) I’d be more impressed, but I bet you don’t.
Just for the heck of it, I went to the Jakarta Post web site and used the search term “Islam”. Enlightening, though perhaps not in the politically correct way you intend. Here are the headlines I found — not cherry picked, just ALL the headlines on the first, second, and last pages.
Australia fears terror attacks in wake of [top terror suspect Umar] Patek arrest
Intelligence agency confirms Umar Patek’s arrest
I don’t know Umar Patek, says [terrorist defendent Abu Bakar] Ba’asyir
[Abu Bakar] Ba’asyir refuses to attend hearing
Probe Ahmadi attack: W. Java Governor
Terrorist leader [Umar Patek] arrested in Pakistan
Mail bombs spur interest in books on Judaism, conspiracies
Issues: Overcoming Islamophobia in the US
Terror suspect defends MILF [not what you think: MILF=Moro Islamic Liberation Front, a terror group]
Hundreds of artifacts unearthed in S. Sulawesi [* Wow, an article not about Islamic terror! *]
[Terrorist leader] Umar Patek could be information goldmine: ICG
Officials praise arrest of Bali terror suspect [Umar Patek]
Councilor wants all girls to wear ‘jilbab’ [Muslim head scarves]
[Muhammad Salim] Transliterator of epic ‘Sureq Galigo’ passes away [only linked because Salim attended an Islamic boarding school]
NU [Nahdlatul Ulama, Indonesia’s largest Muslim organization] to establish new youth and student wing
Comment: A Palestinian wrong way to peace [the “wrong way” being participating in the “continually failing peace process”]
Letter: BIN to watch over us: Why not? [supporting expansion of Indonesia’s National Intelligence Agency powers of detainment in order to suppress Muslim extremism]
Bangkalan urges female students to wear headscarves
Syrian port city rocked by unrest, tensions widen [“President Bashar Assad’s government of minority Alawite Muslims blamed a major Sunni cleric in Qatar for inciting the unrest.”]
… many pages like this…
Text your say: Middle East’s uprising [including the gem: “Their efforts to stay in power go against Islamic teachings. In my opinion, democracy can be practiced in the Middle East on one condition: that it is guided and enlightened by the Islamic ways of life.”]
AGO supports local bans on Ahmadiyah
RI seeks to define freedom amid rising religious violence
[Tennessee] State’s bill would make following Shariah a felony
Banning Ahmadiyah not a solution: Yenny
Issue: FPI leader gets less than six months [for assault with a deadly weapon against members of a church that local Muslims objected to]
Organizations demand govt disband Ahmadiyah in S. Sulawesi
Police deploy 1,750 officers to secure FPI rally in C. Jakarta
Lamongan Police ban hostesses from wearing sexy clothes
Regional heads violate Constitution with bans
How odd that the Indonesian media seems to be obsessed with violence in Islam, don’t you think? Why would that be? The stories not about violence tend to be about efforts to get non-Muslims to behave like Muslims — and about how weird it is for Americans to associate Islam with violence and repression. In a way, it’s refreshing — no self-respecting leftist American newspaper could afford to devote so much of its coverage of Islam to the problem of Islamic violence. Maybe you should think real hard about this before claiming that violent Islamists don’t really have anything to do with Islam. Where are all the Jakarta Post stories about benevolent Islam? Where are the handy recipe pages? Where are the stories about feeding the hungry? About ecumenism? Frankly, it seems like the Jakarta Post may have a better handle than you on the central problems of Islam.
BTW Many of these stories have to do with Islamic violence against the followers of Ahmadiyah, which “mainstream Muslims” consider “heretical and blasphemous against Islam”. The Ahmadis have been the victim of violent attacks in recent years, and in what seems to be typical Muslim “blame the victim” logic, are being held responsible for “incitement to violence”. The reaction of the government is revealing. It is exactly as if President Kennedy had reacted to Klan violence against blacks, not by sending the FBI to “break” the Klan, but by banning the NAACP and SCLC for “inciting” violence against them.
Bob-1 @ 4:18 pm:
look at the list of countries, and add up the ones where even a significant portion might be fundamentalists of the sort that would whip a girl to death. For example, for a first apparoximation, I think you can discount Indonesia’s 202,000,000 entirely — it isn’t that sort of place.
What are you basing that assessment on? Skimming the articles above, there seems to be ample evidence of a deep vein of Islamic fundamentalism in Indonesia.
Here’s an example: Probe Ahmadi Attack: W. Java Governor….
Or another: It’s time for the media to fight terrorism:
There are some clues, here, Bob-1, about certain defects in your worldview.
Andrew W Says:
“O/T Wodun, have you seen Ken A’s latest post? Worrying, haven’t seen anything of him lately.’
Wow. I don’t check his blog regularly but just did after your comment. That last post is concerning.
Andrew W Says:
March 31st, 2011 at 2:44 pm
The winner for most strawmen in one comment.
“For example, for a first apparoximation, I think you can discount Indonesia’s 202,000,000 entirely — it isn’t that sort of place.”
Yet the government requires western performers to alter their shows to meet Muslim sensibilities. Fancy that.
Bob and Andrew and any other of you moral equivalence disciples, how far do you think a pi$$ Mohammed exhibit would get in ANY Muslim country?
Do you not remember the Koran in the toilet riots in Turkey? You know, a “modern” Muslim country.
‘Bob and Andrew and any other of you moral equivalence disciples, how far do you think a pi$$ Mohammed exhibit would get in ANY Muslim country?”
Wait, are you saying that censoring art exhibits is the moral equivalent of flogging a 14 year old rape victim to death? Or are you saying that I would suggest such a thing? Either way, this conversation is absurd.
Rand, thanks for hosting the conversation, which was interesting for awhile there (I never browsed a Bangladeshi newspaper before.) I do want to answer your question about CAIR, if you can clarify what you’re asking about, but it may have to wait until after the weekend. Thanks again.
“I never browsed a Bangladeshi newspaper before.”
Bob-1 manages to make every single comment thread here all about himself and the liberal brownie points he’s amassed. I’ll bet Bob-1 makes a point of going to every single new ethnic restaurant in town and then bragging about it to all and sundry, instead of just eating Indian food or whatever because he likes it.
“Wait, are you saying that censoring art exhibits is the moral equivalent of flogging a 14 year old rape victim to death? Or are you saying that I would suggest such a thing? Either way, this conversation is absurd.”
Don’t try to be obtuse Bob. You do it well enough without thinking about it.
I certainly wouldn’t put it past him, but if he lives here in LA, that’s an accomplishment on par with crossing the street. That’s the “trouble” with a cosmopolitan city — even the greatest “liberal accomplishment” is workaday for the hidebound.
That’s what the internet is for. Providing a place where big city liberals can pretend to reach out the the unsophisticated rubes, and get back some of that special feeling they lost when their meatspace experiences are always like this: “I ate at that new Syrian-Tongan fusion restaurant the other day. It was superb!” “Well, my eldest daughter, Fuchsia, came back from a year’s volunteer work in Lesotho with Doctors Without Borders. They tell me she was instrumental in saving three villages from an epidemic of beri-beri and typhoid! She’s in care now, but they tell me she’ll be able to walk again in a year, and will regain almost all movement in her right arm! On the other hand, Philip Junior’s cd of world music with the Fijian Deaf-Mute Choir just entered the charts at number 4!”
Yea, I remember just this morning driving past a road sign on LBJ directing all Non-Christians away from the city center. After all they can’t defile our holy JFK memorial. And then there are all those Baptist church services where they tell all the non-believers to not set foot in the church during prayers. Oh and then there are all those Catholic priests standing before the congregation with a tube of holy anal lube held high proclaiming the sanctity of pedophilic sex while the inspired flock fall to their knees screaming Doc Johnson’s is great! And I think I heard that over in Atlanta they have daily public hangings and every Sunday is toss a homosexual from a tall building day. And what’s with all these Christian women driving cars anyway? I thought they were supposed to be at home barefoot and dropping babies — and where’s my dinner bitch? *smack* It says it right there in The Bible, smack your bitch if she don’t cook your dinner….and hide her face….and wears long pants out in public….and let’s another man diddle her p hole — forcibly or not. Wow, it’s just like Islam….gwarsh golly geee.
Josh, are you being sarcastic? /bob
Well I just got back from Louisiana where I did my part to help victims of Katrina, Rita, and the BP oil spill. I even enjoyed some of the local food. But most of all, I restrained from ordering any cruise missile strikes on countries with oil. No 14 year old girls were harmed in my outting.
“Josh, are you being sarcastic?” mmmmmmaybee *shrug*
A “mob” apparently killed 20 UN workers because someone in Florida burned a copy of their primary religious work. What religion was this?
It seems like we’re wasting an opportunity here, White Ameri[k]ca. This Islam thing…just look think about it for a while. Seems like it has more going for it than not.
It’s a religion. We all want religion. Religion’s faith, so there’s no way of really picking one over the other, is there? So why not Islam? Especially given the advantages.
Now hear me out. A fourteen year old girl gets whipped to death for something she didn’t do. That’s really awful, but listen to what you DON’T hear in response. You don’t hear the feminist Left uttering a single peep. If Islam can murder an innocent, defenseless girl, and the feminist Left is utterly silent…well, damn, that’s just a miracle! Anything that can make those bitches shut the f*** up is worth exploring.
As a matter of fact, why isn’t White Male Ameri[k]ca running to Islam and Sharia? Here’s a chance for them to adopt a respectable religion which allows them to finally give women what they have coming to them…right?
Just when I think Rand and his merry bunch of useless idiots can’t plumb any further depths… They do.
To paraphrase a great man: this isn’t even wrong…
There are Christians killing in the name of god. Hindu honor killings are on the rise at the moment, not to mention acid attacks on women in Hindu families.
We have American Christians “thanking” god for sending a sign in the form of the Japanese earthquake…
But no, mulsims are the fraking problem.
Morons.
There are Christians killing in the name of god
Really? Name one. Well, two, since you used the plural.
Morons.
I have to admit, the intelligence and sophistication of your argument is matched only by its persuasive power.
Daveon is killing strawmen in the name of moral-equivalencing like a dog biting a man.
And, no; Christians didn’t call the Japanese earthquake a sign. Treehugger did.
Carl, I’ve just read a short essay entitled The Bloody Religion of Christianity, at Hyperhistory; subtitled: hyperlinked world history with biblical perspective. I tried posting the link but Rand’s spam wall eats comments with links.
Despite the title and the religious nature of the site, I thought it was a fairly astute and evenhanded assessment.
Carl, a 100+ post thread on Transterrestrial is not properly anointed until Daveon casts his seal of disdain on the affair.
You know, Andrew, at first I thought I’d add to my challenge to Daveon: and let us have examples from this century, since you used the present tense.
But then I thought, no, why insult his intelligence? Who could be dishonest or silly enough to think Christians slaughtering Muslims at the Battle of Acre in the Year of Our Lord 1191 justifies or is even remotely comparable to 9/11, the Bali bombings, or the latest round of random murder of UN functionaries in Kabul?
I thank you for dispelling my ignorance on that point, and reminding me that with some folks there is no need to worry about stooping too low.
That’s an interesting euphemism, Karl. I’m trying to teach my youngest to cast his seal of disdain into the toilet, so I can stop buying diapers.
Source
Carl, have I can see that I have somehow hurt your feelings, as why else would any reasonable person in such a septic manner to what was a fairly innocuous comment, if it’s Christians slaughtering people of other religions this century (other than in self defense), I’m pretty sure I can find you a few million cases.
I know that won’t be satisfactory for you, as I know you’ll insist that they aren’t actually killing in the name of the Christian God unless they’re actually chanting some religious slogan while they’re doing the killing (praying to their God for guidance before the slaughter is commenced I’ll assume still wouldn’t qualify in your eyes as “killing in the name of God”, though I’ve no doubt that you would see Muslims praying in identical circumstances as such). But I guess that’s just a reflection on the rampant hypocrisy of Christians such as yourself, it’s supposedly a religion of peace, but, hey, it’s OK to invade this country, or that country, or start a war here or there, to you it doesn’t really matter that Christians have killed several million people of other religions since the end of the second world war, just as long as you can say ‘as they weren’t killing people in the name of Christ, it’s OK for Christians to invade and kill.
Talk about turning the other face!
Andrew W has just discovered the internets! Congratulations! I do remember the millions slaughtered by those dastardly Catholics after the Piss Christ came out, but that’s nothing compared to the billions killed by Presbyterians in response to that “I Kissed A Girl (And I Liked It)” song. We’re still having problems repopulating the Earth after that!
And, um, Andrew, it’s “turning the other cheek.” Most people only have one face, though you may be an exception.
Andrea, I’ve argued with some really bright people in this thread, Rand and wodun, then there have been a few, like Carl and Curt who have raised a few points worth addressing, then there are a few others whose comments are at least worth reading, and then there’s you. Your in a class all by yourself. You offer nothing but infantile insults and idiotic stereotyping. Reading your mindless dribble is like watching a dunk throwing up. When I said “Talk about turning the other face!” you didn’t even realize it was deliberate (or maybe you did but think it clever to appear stupid).
Andrea, the world is more complex than you imagine, and so are most of the people in it.
I can see that I have somehow hurt your feelings, as why else would any reasonable person in such a septic manner to what was a fairly innocuous comment
I don’t know what Andrew is seeing, but I think he got it wrong about Carl’s response. Anyway, I see it didn’t take long for him to start judging people’s morals across time. I didn’t think it was that hard for him to do. Indeed, he took to it like a fish to water.
“I see it didn’t take long for him to start judging people’s morals across time.”
No, though I thought it an astute essay, I can’t say I agree with it entirely, I think it illustrates some of the issues raised in this debate, but, for instance, I don’t buy into the authors belief in a religious basis to ethics. To me ethics are in our nature because we’re social animals, not because a God created them.
Andrea, I’ve argued with some really bright people in this thread
Don’t feel bad. I’m sure they don’t feel savagely contradicted. I mean, I wouldn’t characterize anything you’ve said here as a serious argument.
Carl, have I can see that I have somehow hurt your feelings
Fear not! Not the case at all. In fact, I have thoroughly enjoyed our exchange. I mean, I know I shouldn’t have, from the strict perspective of Christian charity, but alas I gave into temptation.
Andrew W, I see you slipped your handlers today and got on the computer, you naughty boy. Didn’t they tell you that the internet is full of bad stuff that will hurt your brain stem? Now you know. If you put the keyboard down (and for God’s sakes, quit chewing it! You’re getting it all sticky with your drool) you might still get to have dessert. It’s pudding night!
Most people only have one face, though you may be an exception.
No I think he only has one face. But he uses the Linda Blair technique.
I know that won’t be satisfactory for you, as I know you’ll insist that they aren’t actually killing in the name of the Christian God unless they’re actually chanting some religious slogan while they’re doing the killing (praying to their God for guidance before the slaughter is commenced I’ll assume still wouldn’t qualify in your eyes as “killing in the name of God”, though I’ve no doubt that you would see Muslims praying in identical circumstances as such).
As you point out, the fact that there hasn’t actually been religious Christian killing is a very good reason to disagree with your claims, Andrew. So here’s my problem. You rebutted your argument quite well. So why make it? What is the point of making self-defeated arguments?
You know what the difference between Daveon and a sack of shit is?
So far, the only difference I can find is the sack. His musings are just as intelligent and equally worthwile as the vapors that would eminate from such a steaming pile of feces.
Daveon=A less than worthless, festering boil on the ass of humanity.
I had a look at your blog Andrea, a holly crap you’re not 12…in fact you’re about the same chronological age as me… can I ask?… Were there problems at your birth?
Carl, I’ve just read a short essay entitled The Bloody Religion of Christianity
It’s a shame you wasted your time, if your goal was to contribute anything useful to this discussion, which is about current events, not history.