Who are they, really?
For years, we’ve heard how the peaceful religion of Islam has been hijacked by extremists.
What if it’s the other way around? Worse, what if the peaceful hijackers are losing their bid to take over the religion?
We need to nurture the apostates, but we can’t pretend they aren’t apostates. We are at war with Islam, whether we like it or not. Or to put it another way, we may not be interested in Islam, but Islam is definitely interested in us. And Israel has absolutely nothing to do with it, other than being on the front lines in the war.
This is nonsense. When you say “we” are at war, that includes Muslims. When you say “we” are at war, that includes Muslims. Muslim-Americans who joined the US Army after 9/11 with the express purpose of helping to kill Osama bin Laden are not apostates, and we are not at war with them or their religion. Muslim-Americans who just live peacefully and patriotically are not apostates, and we are not at war with them or their religion.
Islam isn’t a monolithic religion. Stop with the broad-brush generalizations. If you want to nurture the people you’re incorrectly calling apostates, stop being a bigot.
Muslim-Americans who just live peacefully and patriotically are not apostates
How do you know? Who are you to judge?
…and we are not at war with them or their religion.
I agree. But their religion is not true Islam. Or at least many Muslims, millions of them, don’t think it is.
FWIW, Barack Obama is an apostate Muslim. Islam is a patriarchal religion, and his father was a Muslim, so he was born (and partially raised) a Muslim, and has since renounced his faith. That’s a capital offense in much of Pakistan.
Are you at war with these guys:
http://www.isna.net/articles/News-Briefs/Islamic-Society-of-North-America-recommends-Gaza-Youth-Visit-Holocaust-Museum.aspx
I’m not. And I’m proud that America is not, to the extent that I don’t just take it for granted because a war on Islam would be a gross violation of the 1st Amendment and a complete betrayal of what the country stands for.
“How do you know? Who are you to judge?”
And I could ask the same of you, and guess what, there is no right answer because, again, Islam, like Judaism, is not a monolithic religion — like Judaism, various learned men make proclamations, and various other learned men make contradictory proclamations. Google “Obama is not an apostate”, and you’ll see what I mean.
And people like Bob-1, who are terrified of being called bigots above anything else, are part of the problem.
Andrea, when I was a kid, once a week I went to Sunday school and got brain-washed into thinking that bigotry was wrong, and ultimately can lead to events like the Holocaust. Now I am an unthinking zombie who can’t distinguish between bin Laden and these guys:
The Association of Patriotic Arab Americans in Military
http://www.apaam.org/
Excerpt: “As a Muslim American Marine, I have lead Marines in combat on numerous occasions and since 9/11, I participated in counter-terrorism operations to pursue those terrorist bastards who attacked our country”
Bob, we are at war with the people who are at war with us. Stop playing games.
You should stop saying we are war with Islam. It is incorrect. The Muslim-American marine I quoted above is going into combat to defend you and your freedom — he deserves better than what you are giving him and his fellow believers.
You should stop saying we are war with Islam.
Millions of Islamists think they’re at war with us (and all infidels), and that those who don’t agree with them are apostates. I think they have the better part of the argument, based on my reading of the Koran. We have to nurture an Islam that isn’t at war with us (which is to say one that is a reformation and repudiation of some of its fundamental tenets), but as the linked piece points out, it’s an uphill battle in places like Pakistan.
Islam is a political doctrine, and the Koran is it’s constitution.
Peace without subjugation is war.
Every individual on the face of the planet has his own personal and unique belief system regardless of any group they belong to. Every individual would of course include those muslim marines defending our country and other muslims that consider themselves peaceful.
However, the muslim religion is not and has not ever been a religion of peace. Peace is an explicit tactic of the religion when they don’t have the power to be the aggressor. This doesn’t mean that every single individual muslim in an aggressive muslim country supports the aggressive behavior of the majority. However, to the extent that we can understand the feeling of the general population they are very strong supporters of the aggression.
In America, muslims are not dominate so here they are generally peaceful with exceptions like fort hood. But even here polls show that regarding aggression they tend to be ‘for it’ by a large majority. Even in American mosques they preach Israel is the little satan and guess who is the great satan?
So yes, some individual muslim may believe the lie that some versions of islam are peaceful. It’s even possible that a whole group of muslims in one mosque are all peaceful (but I’d wager very strongly against it knowing the foundation it stands on.)
It’s also possible that loyal patriotic Americans that happen to be muslim by family aren’t religious. Individual are unique.
But Bob, don’t you tell me I’m painting with too broad a brush when I say these freakin’ assholes who hope to kill or dhimmify the whole world need to be buried along with their so called religion.
” I think they have the better part of the argument, based on my reading of the Koran.”
Oh, I see.
Please let me tell you a story. At my sister’s Bat Mitzvah, I read from the Torah. I didn’t wear a yarmulke. Before the service, our rabbi asked me if I forgot. I said “No, I just don’t find it significant – it is a traditional trapping, but not meaningful.” Our rabbi asked whether I found my Torah portion meaningful. I said sure, so he called my sister over, and the three of us talked about it for a little while. At some point, he said “good enough for me!”, lets get ready! After the service, one of my elderly relatives came up to me and said he noticed the lack of a yurmulke. I started to explain, but he cut me off, and said what I did was wrong, and it didn’t matter what some Reform rabbi said, it was still wrong.
Well, he was entitled to his form of Judaism, and I was entitled to mine. I think his priorities are screwed up, and he thinks the same about me. You, Rand Simberg, could step in and cite the Torah, but I think your opinion probably wouldn’t sway either of us, as we are the ones who decide the meaning and importance of the Torah to our religious life, not you. That’s what being in a non-monolithic religion is like.
You can call someone an apostate, but there is no objective truth there, you’re just taking sides. Why you would take the side of a murderous extremist instead of the side of a patriotic marine is beyond me.
“Islam, like Judaism, is not a monolithic religion”
islam has been involved in 15,000 terrorist acts worldwide since 9/11. the jooos not so much.
“you can call someone an apostate, but there is no objective truth there,”
tell that to the dead governor in pakistan cupcake
I’m not “taking their side,” other than to point out that their viciousness and totalitarianism are the norm for the religion, and that those who want to so fundamentally alter it to really become one of peace are the outliers. To be an apostate in this case is a compliment to them.
And I think it quite insulting to the Jewish religion to compare it to Islam.
I notice that Bob-1 has still not addessed the prime question of this post: What if those violent Muslims are the followers of the true religion, and the peaceful Muslims are hijackers injecting foreign ideas of peace and tolerance?
Based on the contents of the Koran and the Hadith, Jonah Goldberg’s supposition seems very credible. And based on what news reports tell us about the opinions of Muslims around the world, it seems that there aren’t that many “peaceful hijackers”.
You can call someone an apostate, but there is no objective truth there, you’re just taking sides.
So Bob, when they stone somebody to death for being an apostate or blasphemer, are they objectively truly dead or is their being alive or dead subject to your idiotic interpretation?
My step-daughter gave me “Lies My Teacher Told Me” this Christmas. Fascinating, well worth reading. I’m just at the point where the author questions how the history of US policy in the middle east is presented, or NOT presented in various text books.
It’s tragic that the MSM and most blogs ignore the last 50 years of US foreign policy and how it created and empowered Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Muslims don’t hate the U.S. because of “who we are,” (ie, “we stand for freedom”), but because of what we do — because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy.
Rather than believing that the USA is “the great Satan”, they know us to be “the great hypocrite”. We talk about installing democracies but instead we have overthrown democratically elected leaders and then we install dictators – all around the world.
I love my country, even though I know how how badly our government has acted both at home and abroad. Other than in Bosnia and WWII our wars have been primarily for the benefit of American corporations and corporate multinationals.
We talk the talk, pretend that we are “the good guys”, but where the rubber meets the road, we don’t walk the walk.
We need to stop pretending that our bloody history doesn’t exist. Until we get control of our foreign policy, actually wrest it from those who value profit above all else, we will always be the prime target of “terrorist freedom fighters”.
Another good read is Hemmingway’s “The Moon Is Down”, if you want to know why the “insurgents” always win.
In other words Bob, are you trying to tell me that all the killing around the world that goes on in the name of Islam doesn’t matter and can be ignored because some muslims are really nice?
(of course, those really nice muslims, if they happen to be young girls, can be honored killed by their own father, with the approval of their own mother and aunts, uncles and cousins, for simply being nice to you, an infidel, if the father decides that’s the case.)
Pst314, I did address the question of what is the “true religion” — there isn’t one. Anyone can make a proclamation, and look for followers. But rather than look to ancient writings and try to interpret them even though you are a non-believer, why not look to history, and as you suggest, current events.
History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule
Jews did better under the Muslims than they did under the Christians. Does this tell us anything about the nature of Islam?
Current Events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senegal
Senegal is 90% muslim. Does Senegal tell us anything about the nature of Islam?
Bennett, truth is stubborn. All politics includes corruption and hypocracy. All actions are the result of imperfect information.
What your saying sounds a lot like justification for 9/11. Is that really what you’re trying to say? If so, I’m calling BS.
America is not perfect and can never be. But we have been the clearest force for good this world has ever known, even with our failures. I agree we should not candy coat the truth, but we should also learn perspective.
Perspective may be the biggest problem of the left after disregard for the individual.
“Jews did better under the Muslims than they did under the Christians.”
oh that’s why the jews were expelled from muslim countries
“I love my country, even though I know how how badly our government has acted both at home and abroad.”
no you love some progg fantasy of america
“Jews did better under the Muslims than they did under the Christians.”
umm the state of israel emerged in 1948 with the backing of the noted christer harry truman. moe’s guys didn’t do too much in the preceding 1400 years.
Does Senegal tell us anything about the nature of Islam?
Why yes it does. Quoting from the article…
Senegal has a population of refugees and asylum seekers numbering approximately 23,800 in 2007. The majority of this population (20,200) is from Mauritania.
Mauritania is 99% Islamic.
Humans are mostly human. Islam turns many humans in animals (that should be slaughtered.) Since individuals are unique it’s no surprise that groups of individuals are as well. Senegal has a lot of French influence.
I’ve been to Turkey. Lot’s of muslims there and I found most (not all) very nice and friendly. How the F@#k does that make Islam peaceful Bob?
Ken, Not justification for 9/11 in MY mind, but definitely justification in the minds of middle eastern Muslims, Chileans, El Salvadorans, etc.
You write “But we have been the clearest force for good this world has ever known”
I don’t know about that. Perhaps our founding fathers were, in that they established a really big democracy that has endured for 200+ years. No country is blameless when it looks back. Yet we really do need to look back at the root cause of our current situation.
Islam is one fucked up belief system, as are many others, and I think that the blood will continue to flow long after I am dead.
I don’t think there are any easy answers, but to continue to whack the a hornets nest with a dish towel is just stupid. If we can’t nuke the whole country and be done with it, we need to get out and then get really good at monitoring our own borders.
Bennett:
To the degree that Muslims (and other Third Worlders) hate us for what we do, I’m of the opinion that they hate our depraved popular culture that is beamed into their homes worldwide, more than our foreign policy.
Before the counterculture revolution of the 1960s, many people in the Third World looked up to us as an inspiration for them, and Muslims weren’t especially hostile.
“but definitely justification in the minds of middle eastern Muslims, Chileans, El Salvadorans, etc. ”
too funny your progg view. the peeps in south america aren’t trying to kill infidels worldwide.
So Bob, you are saying that because you pulled a d1ck move at your sisters Bat-Mitzvah, that jews are eager to exercise the Torah as a political doctrine of dominance, Just like the Jews?
Your anecdotal non-sequitor just makes you look like a Jerk, not like you are working for conciliation.
I’m not saying you are a d1ck, but anyone with one little bit of propriety knows that that was a d1ck move.
“Senegal is 90% muslim. Does Senegal tell us anything about the nature of Islam?”
ask the saudis, they tell infidels not to go too mecca on their highway signs.
too many O!’s no
Douglas, about my anecdote, I was 16. I was doing what teenagers do. I suppose the focus of my story should have been on the rabbi, not me. The rabbi was typical of Reform rabbis in that he wanted to encourage people to think about which parts of Judaism of meaningful to them and which aren’t. The point is that there isn’t any overriding authority to decide who was right, me or my elderly relative. (He is still alive and kicking, and still thinks reform Judaism is screwed up. He wouldn’t use the word “apostate”, but the word probably fits.)
I don’t know about that [clearest force for good.]
Then you need to read more than that one book.
Colin Powell once said it very well “…the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are.”
Bennett, that is the kind of nation we are and more.
Do the evils you suggest exist? Of course, but that doesn’t change who we are. Right now, who we are has been hijacked by those now in power.
“Pst314, I did address the question of what is the “true religion” — there isn’t one.”
No, you non-addressed it. The actual contents of the Koran and Hadith contradict your “all religions are the same and we can’t make judgements” position.
As for citing Wikipedia, don’t you know that they are not exactly reliable sources of information on any topic that is in any way disputed or controversial?
Bob, why do you insist that anecdotes repeal reality? There are no end to anecdotes. They never repeal reality. Islam was founded by a cult figure that makes Charlie Manson seem like a decent fella. It reflects that heritage to this day. Perhaps the evil in Islam is small. Ok. Let’s kill those and see what’s left. Then lather, rinse and repeat… until the threat is so small we have other things to worry about.
“he wanted to encourage people to think about which parts of Judaism of meaningful to them and which aren’t. ”
preaching relativism good for his progg beliefs
bob,
egypt used to be a christer land. what happened?
sorry, can’t resist…
Ken quotes Colin Powell (and I haven’t checked the link myself): “…the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are.” I think that John Ross (and many others) would strongly disagree with Gen. Powell…
and please don’t read more into this comment than I actually wrote…
@Ken
“Then you need to read more than that one book.”
I am aware of how one’s opinion can be influenced by what ever one happens to be reading but seriously, it’s not my first book. Plus, I’ve been alive since 1958 so a lot of the last 40 years I did experience personally.
“…who we are has been hijacked by those now in power.” Wow, my point exactly, but not just today, seriously, for the last 200 years. Our sacred ideals are shared in the hearts of most Americans, but we have been ill-served by the upper class. They do not have our basic decency, or our best interests on their agenda.
@rickl
Actually, I disagree with that. Most folks over there probably plop their kids in front of the tele (when there’s electricity) and then Allah bless the Big Bird and Curious George.
“Before the counterculture revolution of the 1960s, many people in the Third World looked up to us as an inspiration for them, and Muslims weren’t especially hostile.”
And Hippies changed all that? All by their pot smoking selves? Please explain that to me, I seem to have missed the link. I doubt it was the counter culture, but rather the covert opps for Big Agra or Oil.
Funny how the natives remember those things.
Bob-1:
I had been corrected on this — kippah is the proper Hebrew term — and I wear such headgear when I am at Jewish religious function and am directed to do so, just as much as I would take my shoes off were I invited into a mosque. The Apostle Paul said he would be “all things to all men” with respect to an argument that took place 20 centuries ago along the lines of the discussion you had with your rabbi. I took this to mean that Paul would not argue certain points but would observe traditions or rituals out of respect for the people to whom such things had meaning.
I guess I am going to back you up, however, on your criticism of the the blanket-characterization-of-Islam thing. President George W Bush has gotten criticism on this, but I am a George W Bush man through and through that the Global War on Terror (GWOT) is not a war on Islam. Our Iraqi, Afghan, Yemeni, and many other allies in this war are for the most part Muslims. It is in standing shoulder to shoulder with our Muslim allies that I backed President Bush 100% in the Iraq War Surge and I back President Obama with respect to Afghanistan.
“but I am a George W Bush man through and through that the Global War on Terror (GWOT) is not a war on Islam”
what if islam with saudi help declared a war on you?
Cthulhu, good point. Although we eventually became a different country, our territorial acquisitions didn’t end with the Trail of Tears either. When did we last acquire territory — 1978? Just before giving back the Panama Canal Zone, we acquired the Northern Mariana Islands, albeit with the consent of the residents.
Paul, you’re right. I was trying to make a point about religious doctrine, but of course visitors should be respectful just out of politeness. And more importantly, you’re right that our goal to help Iraq and Afghanistan emerge from war as peaceful prosperous countries only makes sense if the USA isn’t at war with Islam.
We have muslim allies. Let me reemphasize the point as apparently it’s been missed…
People and groups are unique.
However, this does not change the fact of what Islam is.
Islam is a system which tolerates no other. Periods of peace are tactical. Our muslim allies will (not may, but will) turn aggressive at some point (even if this means changing of the guard.) Turkey and Pakistan are in transition now.
Cthulhu, Indians (I was born in Brooklyn, I’m a native American) faced a cultural conflict. Might makes right is an old concept. Rather fundamental actually. However, Americans have a profound believe in fair play which you happen to bring out in your comment. Considering all the casinos and other advantages I’d say they didn’t fare too badly.
All governments, including ours, are by nature tyrannies. I’ll put our tyranny up against anyones. anywhere. anytime.
Bennett:
And Hippies changed all that? All by their pot smoking selves? Please explain that to me, I seem to have missed the link. I doubt it was the counter culture, but rather the covert opps for Big Agra or Oil.
From what I’ve read, the third world didn’t have a problem with John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart movies. But they rather strenuously object to modern-day Hollywood pushing sex, drugs, violence, and deviant lifestyles.
We need to nurture the apostates, but we can’t pretend they aren’t apostates.
Calling them apostates might not be the best way to befriend them, even if it is true. But is it actually true?
I browsed through the Quran once, a long time ago and I remember seeing both antagonistic and conciliatory statements towards Judaism and Christianity. I don’t know what the Hadith is like, I never read it. Some (maybe more than just some, I don’t recall) of the rulings in the Quran are harsh and alien to our society, but the same goes for the Old Testament / Tanakh. Modern Jews and Christians aren’t generally considered apostates, even though some may argue they have abandoned the tenets of their forefathers.
Some would even go so far as to say Pauline Christianity is a gross and blasphemous distortion of the teachings of Jesus, which would have appalled Jesus. And as I understand it secular scholars of the Hebrew scriptures believe the Israelite religion wasn’t even originally monotheistic, even in the early monarchical period and before, El and YHWH (then still pronounced) being two distinct gods, Baal and Asherah worship occurring in the Temple in the time of Solomon etc.
Whatever the historical truth of these matters, it seems to me that we in the West are at war (unasked for) with religious fanaticism, more than with a specific religion or group of religions.
My view is that you can be what you want, you can believe whatever truths or lies you wish, but your actions should have consequences. Harming innocents on the flimsy basis of a vapid, religious belief is among the vilest actions that humans can do. We should treat those who knowingly approve or associate with such beings appropriately.
There are many horrible ideologies out there. I personally don’t think some variant of radical Islam will prove to be the worst of them this century. But learning how to make it a humane and honorable belief may aid us well in future tribulations.
I guess to summarize, credibility and legitimacy is the prime weapon of a religion. Refuse to grant them that and punish those who commit vile harm, regardless of their alleged religious beliefs.
Ultimately, I think the disease will be the cure. Radical Islam destroys the ability to cope with problems. Sure, they’ll be able to rationalize all the problems that will happen to them, such as grinding poverty, mass die-offs, being eternally treated as a bunch of nutcases, and losing their young people to the glittering society that exists beyond. But they won’t actually be able to do anything about it. Even their high population growth rates won’t matter, once the inevitable, self-imposed population bottlenecks happen.
rickl: I’ll agree with that. I’ve also read that they find our disappearance rate for young girls in the USA rather disturbing, as do I, and WE find their treatment of women to be totally unacceptable.
It has been argued that the whole burka thing is what has kept the Muslim countries in the dark ages. Half of their best brains are forbidden to contribute to society. A very sick situation that leads to what Karl Hallowell wrote about.
There are more and less liberal strains in Islam. The only people within Islam that think the more liberal Muslims are apostates are the least liberal, and they cannot speak for Islam as a whole. Islam doesn’t have anyone equivalent to the Pope.
Why discourage the more liberal Muslims by calling them apostates?