Kasserine Pass
Opening days of the Battle of the Bulge
Chosin Reservoir and nearby areas
Those were bad, but I don’t see any of them as bad as the Death March.
I didn’t say they were as bad as the death march. They were US military defeats of a similar magnitude to the loss of the Philippines. The 1942 Battle of the Atlantic was also a disaster.
My Uncle Paul was in the Army back in 1950 up in North Korea to the east of the Chosin Reservoir. His unit was overrun by the Chinese and he spent the rest of the war as a POW. It is a hell of a story.
Thanks for sharing this. So grateful for his service.
I haven’t had time to follow the link, but reading your paragraphs I know I don’t have to.
I thank God for people like your Uncle Paul. God Bless him and you, and I thank him for his service. My uncle also served in Korea. Like the WWII vets, there aren’t many left now.
Thank you for that link. It was amazing.
As an aside, Tom Brokaw got short shrift for his journalistic abilities, primarily due to his left leaning bias in reporting current events. But the reverence he brought to mainstream media for the people who got us through horrible times was unparalleled in the past 50 years. He deserves a great deal of respect for that.
Beirut 1983 arguably, but this is only the beginning.
Biden is using the old 1975 playbook: refuse air support and resupply, then say that locals are corrupt cowards who deserve their fate.
I’m going to start drinking.
I’m going to start drinking.
I may join you. You prefer Booker’s or Baker’s?
SKYY vodka for me. I save the good stuff for good days.
Biden cut maintenance support to the Afghan Air Force months ago.
I doubt it was Americans that failed resupply, those villas on the Moslem riviera are expensive. You don’t expect the brave Government in Exile to live in shacks, do you? Priorities are priorities, ammo is expensive and they miss so often, if they were better shots they would have had plenty. Our fault for not doing abetter job of marksmanship training. https://nypost.com/2021/08/16/afghan-president-fled-with-cars-helicopter-full-of-money-russia/amp/
Imagine the tragedy of having to leave some of the money behind.
…and the solid gold toilet seats. Tragic, simply tragic I tells you!
those villas on the Moslem riviera are expensive.
‘Nam wasn’t much different as far as the folks at the top were concerned. When the F*ck are we going to learn to ditch the top-most SOBs and deal directly with the mid-level commanders and the ground troops and let the good commanders & leaders rise from the locals as they always will. Of course they can’t trust us as long as we refuse to venture from our Humvees and overnight in our Green Zones and at the 11th hour bug-out. You have to vet and live with the folks. You have to earn their trust. That’s Green Beret 101.
If that’s not your bag, that’s fine. No-one forces you to be a Green Beret.
A bit of both I suspect.
I’m not sure Bataan compares. Probably, as it was part of an Intelligence blunder and they were able to sneak MacArthur off while abandoning others to their fait at the hands of the enemy. However, it just doesn’t seem as callous as events today. Maybe if we experienced it real time as we are this event.
On Monday, I thought this was inevitable with the pull out of US troops.
By Tuesday, watching the Afghanis fall from the plane and realizing we had no plan to help those who helped us was a bad mistake.
Yesterday, learning we left 10,000 US citizens in Afghanistan and told them if they can make it back, we would welcome them home? What type of evil resides in the halls of DC?
Today, learned that neither State nor DoD decided to inform NATO or the UK allies in Afghanistan.
No one had enough spare change for the pay phone outside Camp David….
Trump was impeached for simply threatening to withhold aid “from a major strategic ally”. I guess it is ok if you totally withdraw aid that an ally is already using and expecting without telling them a thing, because there wasn’t a threat? A threat in which no one is harmed, low down dirty crook needs impeachment. Action that puts tens of thousands in peril of losing their life, “what flavor ice cream today?”
And Trump was portrayed as wanting to end NATO because he wanted them to pay their fair share, put troops in Poland, and stop Russia from using petroleum supply to Europe as blackmail.
Credit where credit is due, Biden now has the UK even wondering what is the point in being in NATO if their allies what have their back.
Bay of Pigs?
This one was also blamed on the preceding president?
Remember the saying claimed to be made by Mark Twain, “History does not repeat itself but it rhymes”?
There will never be an exact recurrence of an earlier event but one can find parallels and correlations?
The idea that this is as bad as it gets is a false hope. The fact of the matter is that it’s every bit as bad as it seems, coupled with the very strong possibility of getting infinitely worse.
Here’s why; our position at Kabul airport is a deathtrap. The Taliban are deployed in the urban areas around the airport (and hold the “civilian” half of the airport too). They could, with incredible ease, close the airport – thus removing our ability to get our troops out. Then, we’re looking at the spectacle of a mass surrender/massacre of thousands of US troops. This is infinitely worse that the debacle thus far.
This vulnerability was created by giving up Bagram air/army base first (July 1st). Bagram, only 20 miles from Kabul, would have been an infinitely more sound position than Kabul’s civilian airport to use as a last toehold in Afghanistan.
So far, the only reason we haven’t been cut off at Kabul airport is the Taliban, so far, haven’t been inclined to do so – so, we’re utterly reliant on Taliban restraint. A Taliban that would love to inflict a Dien Bien Phu style defeat on us, and now have the capability to do so with trivial ease. Why would they not do so?
I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
In last night’s Instapundit overnight thread I posted a Google map of Kabul with two circles centered on the airport showing the range of the common Soviet 120mm mortars (6000 yards) and the two dozen M117 155mm artillery pieces (about 9 miles) that were part of the ANA. The Taliban may not have the artillery crews for the 155’s, but we’ve already badly underestimated them.
All they have to do is show they can hit the airport, and then Biden, Milley, and Austin will fold up our operations within an hour, or they’ll stay stuck on stupid and we’ll have something between a Dien Bien Phu and a Kyber Pass level of debacle. Since the chiefs are refusing to send US troops from the airport (while claiming everything is completely fine), I assume they realize this.
The Pentagon spokesman said we had anticipated all this and had prepositioned our forces. That’s blatantly false because when Kabul fell, the nearest Navy carrier, the Reagan, was in the Straits of Malacca heading for Japan. Five days later, it’s finally gotten close enough to be able to put an F-18 over Kabul, which requires aerial refueling because Kabul is 700 miles from the Gulf of Oman and the F-18E has a 500 mile combat radius.
Aside from the fighter jets, I’m sure there are a lot of planes not visible but I have been following along with the planes broadcasting their positions. They had a KC-10a flying loops to the NE of Kabul that wasn’t being visited by the C-17s and another tanker down to the south in Pakistan by Panjgur.
They are flying in a lot of troops, I hope they get the support they need in case thongs go sideways.
They are flying in a lot of troops, I hope they get the support they need in case thongs go sideways.
The term we used in middle school was ‘Melvin’. Seems like this ground operation is similarly hitched. Operation Melvin.
I agree, George.
However, I’ll go a bit further. We pulled our military forces out BEFORE the civilians. Then, we’re supposed to think that this resulting debacle was unexpected? It beggars belief that anyone, even Biden, could be that stupid. Occam’s razor thus suggests that this is not incompetence, but deliberate malice.
So, why are US forces unable to go into Kabul to evac US citizens, when the British are doing so (and doing so with vastly fewer forces than we have in place)? My guess is we cut some kind of deal with the Taliban, in return for them not shutting the airport. I’m sure they’ll also say “unexpectedly” if the Taliban decide to break the deal… because it’s just natural to assume that a bunch of barbaric terrorists can be trusted.
A former Trump Administration security advisor says the Brits are helping retrieve American when they find them:
I suspect the Brits paratroopers (SAS?) are moving with all due haste in small pickup trucks with machine guns mounted on their beds and they are in beards and the traditional Shalwaz Kameez. Likely scaring the hell out of their “cargo” until an accent is shown, ‘elp you mate? Need a lift?’
Funneling everyone to the airport means that the Taliban don’t have to look as hard for people on their lists.
We are getting very little information out of Afghanistan but everyone has smartphones. Videos will pop up over months and years about what is taking place. Kabul is where we are focused now but the Taliban control the country and are going door to door in every city.
Keeping focus on Kabul helps the Taliban by silencing what is going on in the rest of the country and ties our hands on any type of military response.
Depending on how much like ISIS the Taliban become, there will be a growing nukes not troops movement in the USA.
It’s hard to under-estimate Joe’s ability here. But it’s only been what? 4-5 days? What’s extremely disturbing is that nobody in the intelligence or military resigned over surrendering Bagram before we were out. Did they really think that was a good idea? Unbelievable.
Next thing I expect to hear is that the State Dept. is giving out the names and addresses of US citizens left in the country to the Taliban* so that they can be rounded up and dropped off at the airport. Yep!
*Brits are sending out paratroops for retrieving their own I hear.
The Biden Administration has upped the bar for the best demonstration of a Charlie Foxtrot to a whole ‘nuther level…
The Taliban probably care less about Americans than punishing Afghans right now.
“The Taliban probably care less about Americans than punishing Afghans right now.”
Yes. more blood on the incompetent Biden Administration’s hands:
“Taliban going ‘house to house’ in Afghanistan ‘hanging’ people who worked with US: source”
“As the U.S. military and State Department rush to evacuate American citizens and Afghan allies from Kabul’s airport, Taliban checkpoints are cutting off many from freedom and safety – and reports on the ground indicate the militants are summarily executing people who helped U.S. forces over the years.”
The key term is “right now.” Eventually they will get around to whatever Americans are left, say sometime on or about 9/11/21. It will make for the ultimate humiliation of a superpower.
“As the U.S. military and State Department rush to evacuate American citizens and Afghan allies from Kabul’s airport,
Are all 10,000* US Citizens all at the Kabul airport, bags packed ready to go? Are even a majority of those 10,000 even in Kabul? I have no idea.
But yeah, the week before 9/11 would be a great time to seize American hostages and demand the return of all Gitmo detainees on 9/11. And on 9/12 if not a single Gitmo detainee is released, the wife of the first American hostage family seized gets a bullet in her head and conveniently dropped off at the Kabul airport for pickup. Wearing a blood-stained hajib of course. But relax, it will all be Trump’s fault.
Next thing I expect to hear is that the State Dept. is giving out the names and addresses of US citizens left in the country to the Taliban* so that they can be rounded up and dropped off at the airport. Yep!
The first question that popped into my head was why is this not a super double-secret fake-out to get the leadership to expose themselves in the rush to fill the void, allowing for a prompt decapitation of the monster we created. There appears to have been little to no strategy behind what’s happening, leading to the kind of ad hoc tactical responses we’re seeing.
Of course, we never should have been there in the first place. Our beef was supposed to be with al Qaeda, not the Taliban, who after all were the CIA’s response to the prior empire trying to make sense out of that basket case of a country. Although it is a good example of why warlordism is a bad way to run a country in the modern age.
Not a military failure or mistake of any kind.
This was a political sabotage of American prestige by Democrats who hate America.
I don’t think anybody doubts US military power under competent leadership, like Trump demonstrated.
Trump wouldn’t have given Taliban US military equipment.
Democrats did that. Not by mistake. Deliberate Democrat sabotage of American prestige.
And it is crazy that people are blaming Trump for this.
I hate to say this folks, but I told ya so.
The mission went way, way, over what it was supposed to go. The whole “nation building” concept W Bush et al. proposed was a bust. Just like it was in Nam.
We aren’t prepared as a Nation and a people for multi-generational commitments to other nations and peoples. Bottom line.
We need a complete re-assessment of what constitutes strategic defense in the 21 Century. The cold war is gone, dead and buried. We need a top to bottom restructuring of force and intelligence. The old models are failing us, badly.
But if anybody tries to sell you on the idea that the era of the superpower is gone, they have no idea what they’re talking about. History is clear on this point. Power vacuums ALWAYS get filled. ALWAYS. And 21st Century technology will not prohibit any country that masters it from becoming a global superpower. In fact, as the 20th Century showed, just the opposite.
Our best hope is to maintain a sphere of influence over a portion of the planet. It is up to us to decide the shape and means of that influence. Once we have decided what we want for ourselves and our children and grandchildren, then we maybe can convince some allies to join us. But *we* have to do the work. Allies cannot do this for us. But Conquerors can.
Kasserine Pass
Opening days of the Battle of the Bulge
Chosin Reservoir and nearby areas
Those were bad, but I don’t see any of them as bad as the Death March.
I didn’t say they were as bad as the death march. They were US military defeats of a similar magnitude to the loss of the Philippines. The 1942 Battle of the Atlantic was also a disaster.
My Uncle Paul was in the Army back in 1950 up in North Korea to the east of the Chosin Reservoir. His unit was overrun by the Chinese and he spent the rest of the war as a POW. It is a hell of a story.
https://youtu.be/qscaR_tz8Iw
Thanks for sharing this. So grateful for his service.
I haven’t had time to follow the link, but reading your paragraphs I know I don’t have to.
I thank God for people like your Uncle Paul. God Bless him and you, and I thank him for his service. My uncle also served in Korea. Like the WWII vets, there aren’t many left now.
Thank you for that link. It was amazing.
As an aside, Tom Brokaw got short shrift for his journalistic abilities, primarily due to his left leaning bias in reporting current events. But the reverence he brought to mainstream media for the people who got us through horrible times was unparalleled in the past 50 years. He deserves a great deal of respect for that.
Beirut 1983 arguably, but this is only the beginning.
Biden is using the old 1975 playbook: refuse air support and resupply, then say that locals are corrupt cowards who deserve their fate.
I’m going to start drinking.
I’m going to start drinking.
I may join you. You prefer Booker’s or Baker’s?
SKYY vodka for me. I save the good stuff for good days.
Biden cut maintenance support to the Afghan Air Force months ago.
I doubt it was Americans that failed resupply, those villas on the Moslem riviera are expensive. You don’t expect the brave Government in Exile to live in shacks, do you? Priorities are priorities, ammo is expensive and they miss so often, if they were better shots they would have had plenty. Our fault for not doing abetter job of marksmanship training.
https://nypost.com/2021/08/16/afghan-president-fled-with-cars-helicopter-full-of-money-russia/amp/
Imagine the tragedy of having to leave some of the money behind.
…and the solid gold toilet seats. Tragic, simply tragic I tells you!
those villas on the Moslem riviera are expensive.
‘Nam wasn’t much different as far as the folks at the top were concerned. When the F*ck are we going to learn to ditch the top-most SOBs and deal directly with the mid-level commanders and the ground troops and let the good commanders & leaders rise from the locals as they always will. Of course they can’t trust us as long as we refuse to venture from our Humvees and overnight in our Green Zones and at the 11th hour bug-out. You have to vet and live with the folks. You have to earn their trust. That’s Green Beret 101.
If that’s not your bag, that’s fine. No-one forces you to be a Green Beret.
A bit of both I suspect.
I’m not sure Bataan compares. Probably, as it was part of an Intelligence blunder and they were able to sneak MacArthur off while abandoning others to their fait at the hands of the enemy. However, it just doesn’t seem as callous as events today. Maybe if we experienced it real time as we are this event.
On Monday, I thought this was inevitable with the pull out of US troops.
By Tuesday, watching the Afghanis fall from the plane and realizing we had no plan to help those who helped us was a bad mistake.
Yesterday, learning we left 10,000 US citizens in Afghanistan and told them if they can make it back, we would welcome them home? What type of evil resides in the halls of DC?
Today, learned that neither State nor DoD decided to inform NATO or the UK allies in Afghanistan.
No one had enough spare change for the pay phone outside Camp David….
Trump was impeached for simply threatening to withhold aid “from a major strategic ally”. I guess it is ok if you totally withdraw aid that an ally is already using and expecting without telling them a thing, because there wasn’t a threat? A threat in which no one is harmed, low down dirty crook needs impeachment. Action that puts tens of thousands in peril of losing their life, “what flavor ice cream today?”
And Trump was portrayed as wanting to end NATO because he wanted them to pay their fair share, put troops in Poland, and stop Russia from using petroleum supply to Europe as blackmail.
Credit where credit is due, Biden now has the UK even wondering what is the point in being in NATO if their allies what have their back.
Bay of Pigs?
This one was also blamed on the preceding president?
Remember the saying claimed to be made by Mark Twain, “History does not repeat itself but it rhymes”?
There will never be an exact recurrence of an earlier event but one can find parallels and correlations?
The idea that this is as bad as it gets is a false hope. The fact of the matter is that it’s every bit as bad as it seems, coupled with the very strong possibility of getting infinitely worse.
Here’s why; our position at Kabul airport is a deathtrap. The Taliban are deployed in the urban areas around the airport (and hold the “civilian” half of the airport too). They could, with incredible ease, close the airport – thus removing our ability to get our troops out. Then, we’re looking at the spectacle of a mass surrender/massacre of thousands of US troops. This is infinitely worse that the debacle thus far.
This vulnerability was created by giving up Bagram air/army base first (July 1st). Bagram, only 20 miles from Kabul, would have been an infinitely more sound position than Kabul’s civilian airport to use as a last toehold in Afghanistan.
So far, the only reason we haven’t been cut off at Kabul airport is the Taliban, so far, haven’t been inclined to do so – so, we’re utterly reliant on Taliban restraint. A Taliban that would love to inflict a Dien Bien Phu style defeat on us, and now have the capability to do so with trivial ease. Why would they not do so?
I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
In last night’s Instapundit overnight thread I posted a Google map of Kabul with two circles centered on the airport showing the range of the common Soviet 120mm mortars (6000 yards) and the two dozen M117 155mm artillery pieces (about 9 miles) that were part of the ANA. The Taliban may not have the artillery crews for the 155’s, but we’ve already badly underestimated them.
All they have to do is show they can hit the airport, and then Biden, Milley, and Austin will fold up our operations within an hour, or they’ll stay stuck on stupid and we’ll have something between a Dien Bien Phu and a Kyber Pass level of debacle. Since the chiefs are refusing to send US troops from the airport (while claiming everything is completely fine), I assume they realize this.
The Pentagon spokesman said we had anticipated all this and had prepositioned our forces. That’s blatantly false because when Kabul fell, the nearest Navy carrier, the Reagan, was in the Straits of Malacca heading for Japan. Five days later, it’s finally gotten close enough to be able to put an F-18 over Kabul, which requires aerial refueling because Kabul is 700 miles from the Gulf of Oman and the F-18E has a 500 mile combat radius.
Aside from the fighter jets, I’m sure there are a lot of planes not visible but I have been following along with the planes broadcasting their positions. They had a KC-10a flying loops to the NE of Kabul that wasn’t being visited by the C-17s and another tanker down to the south in Pakistan by Panjgur.
They are flying in a lot of troops, I hope they get the support they need in case thongs go sideways.
They are flying in a lot of troops, I hope they get the support they need in case thongs go sideways.
The term we used in middle school was ‘Melvin’. Seems like this ground operation is similarly hitched. Operation Melvin.
I agree, George.
However, I’ll go a bit further. We pulled our military forces out BEFORE the civilians. Then, we’re supposed to think that this resulting debacle was unexpected? It beggars belief that anyone, even Biden, could be that stupid. Occam’s razor thus suggests that this is not incompetence, but deliberate malice.
So, why are US forces unable to go into Kabul to evac US citizens, when the British are doing so (and doing so with vastly fewer forces than we have in place)? My guess is we cut some kind of deal with the Taliban, in return for them not shutting the airport. I’m sure they’ll also say “unexpectedly” if the Taliban decide to break the deal… because it’s just natural to assume that a bunch of barbaric terrorists can be trusted.
A former Trump Administration security advisor says the Brits are helping retrieve American when they find them:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/brits-rescuing-americans-afghanistan-matt-pottinger
I suspect the Brits paratroopers (SAS?) are moving with all due haste in small pickup trucks with machine guns mounted on their beds and they are in beards and the traditional Shalwaz Kameez. Likely scaring the hell out of their “cargo” until an accent is shown, ‘elp you mate? Need a lift?’
Funneling everyone to the airport means that the Taliban don’t have to look as hard for people on their lists.
We are getting very little information out of Afghanistan but everyone has smartphones. Videos will pop up over months and years about what is taking place. Kabul is where we are focused now but the Taliban control the country and are going door to door in every city.
Keeping focus on Kabul helps the Taliban by silencing what is going on in the rest of the country and ties our hands on any type of military response.
Depending on how much like ISIS the Taliban become, there will be a growing nukes not troops movement in the USA.
It’s hard to under-estimate Joe’s ability here. But it’s only been what? 4-5 days? What’s extremely disturbing is that nobody in the intelligence or military resigned over surrendering Bagram before we were out. Did they really think that was a good idea? Unbelievable.
Next thing I expect to hear is that the State Dept. is giving out the names and addresses of US citizens left in the country to the Taliban* so that they can be rounded up and dropped off at the airport. Yep!
*Brits are sending out paratroops for retrieving their own I hear.
The Biden Administration has upped the bar for the best demonstration of a Charlie Foxtrot to a whole ‘nuther level…
The Taliban probably care less about Americans than punishing Afghans right now.
“The Taliban probably care less about Americans than punishing Afghans right now.”
Yes. more blood on the incompetent Biden Administration’s hands:
“Taliban going ‘house to house’ in Afghanistan ‘hanging’ people who worked with US: source”
“As the U.S. military and State Department rush to evacuate American citizens and Afghan allies from Kabul’s airport, Taliban checkpoints are cutting off many from freedom and safety – and reports on the ground indicate the militants are summarily executing people who helped U.S. forces over the years.”
https://www.foxnews.com/world/taliban-going-house-to-house-in-afghanistan-hanging-people-who-worked-with-us-source
The key term is “right now.” Eventually they will get around to whatever Americans are left, say sometime on or about 9/11/21. It will make for the ultimate humiliation of a superpower.
“As the U.S. military and State Department rush to evacuate American citizens and Afghan allies from Kabul’s airport,
Are all 10,000* US Citizens all at the Kabul airport, bags packed ready to go? Are even a majority of those 10,000 even in Kabul? I have no idea.
But yeah, the week before 9/11 would be a great time to seize American hostages and demand the return of all Gitmo detainees on 9/11. And on 9/12 if not a single Gitmo detainee is released, the wife of the first American hostage family seized gets a bullet in her head and conveniently dropped off at the Kabul airport for pickup. Wearing a blood-stained hajib of course. But relax, it will all be Trump’s fault.
*10,000, 15,000 do we really know?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/19/pentagon_spokesman_i_dont_know_how_many_us_citizens_are_still_in_afghanistan.html
Next thing I expect to hear is that the State Dept. is giving out the names and addresses of US citizens left in the country to the Taliban* so that they can be rounded up and dropped off at the airport. Yep!
….and now…… wait for it:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/26/us-officials-provided-taliban-with-names-of-americans-afghan-allies-to-evacuate-506957
The first question that popped into my head was why is this not a super double-secret fake-out to get the leadership to expose themselves in the rush to fill the void, allowing for a prompt decapitation of the monster we created. There appears to have been little to no strategy behind what’s happening, leading to the kind of ad hoc tactical responses we’re seeing.
Of course, we never should have been there in the first place. Our beef was supposed to be with al Qaeda, not the Taliban, who after all were the CIA’s response to the prior empire trying to make sense out of that basket case of a country. Although it is a good example of why warlordism is a bad way to run a country in the modern age.
Not a military failure or mistake of any kind.
This was a political sabotage of American prestige by Democrats who hate America.
I don’t think anybody doubts US military power under competent leadership, like Trump demonstrated.
Trump wouldn’t have given Taliban US military equipment.
Democrats did that. Not by mistake. Deliberate Democrat sabotage of American prestige.
And it is crazy that people are blaming Trump for this.
I hate to say this folks, but I told ya so.
The mission went way, way, over what it was supposed to go. The whole “nation building” concept W Bush et al. proposed was a bust. Just like it was in Nam.
We aren’t prepared as a Nation and a people for multi-generational commitments to other nations and peoples. Bottom line.
We need a complete re-assessment of what constitutes strategic defense in the 21 Century. The cold war is gone, dead and buried. We need a top to bottom restructuring of force and intelligence. The old models are failing us, badly.
But if anybody tries to sell you on the idea that the era of the superpower is gone, they have no idea what they’re talking about. History is clear on this point. Power vacuums ALWAYS get filled. ALWAYS. And 21st Century technology will not prohibit any country that masters it from becoming a global superpower. In fact, as the 20th Century showed, just the opposite.
Our best hope is to maintain a sphere of influence over a portion of the planet. It is up to us to decide the shape and means of that influence. Once we have decided what we want for ourselves and our children and grandchildren, then we maybe can convince some allies to join us. But *we* have to do the work. Allies cannot do this for us. But Conquerors can.